The Undetectable Infection

[lorazapora]

@Elph68 thank you for sharing all your knowledge on here. How is your health now? Hope you are fully recovered?

I recently came across this thread and am very impressed with your research and determination. It’s scary how little knowledge mainstream doctors seem to have on these matters.

My health journey is still a puzzle and I certainly believe I am struggling with pathogenic bacterial infections as I have had recurring UTI problems (which were excruciating) over the last 8 years that never showed up anything on the doctor’s very basic urine tests and never responded to the typical prescribed antibiotics. In the past year or so this seems to have developed into a constant pain in the urethra and bladder and I have developed IBS now as well.

Since going on my own intense investigation similar to yours I have since discovered that I do have Ureaplasma (which is hopefully gone now but have to wait 3 weeks now after my treatment to check) and I also found that I have 3 failed root canal treatment infections, which my new very brilliant holistic dentist informed me of. The mainstream dentists never informed me about this problem which I must have had for a good few years. It seems that root canal treatments are very detrimental to health because they actually harbour infection (because not all of the small branches are filled, only the larger roots and research has shown it to be impossible to completely sterilise a root canal) and so they can leak pathogenic bacteria into the surrounding tissue to pick up a free ride to any location in the body - we just aren’t aware of any of this because obviously the nerve has been killed in the root canal so we don’t feel any pain.

I’ve had two of my root canals extracted so far and am just waiting on the third one which looks to have a large infection in the jaw under it. I’ve also developed terrible brain fog, dizziness and chest pains as well as the worsening pelvic, bladder, urethra, abdominal pains and bloating.

I’m hopeful that the specialist physician I’m seeing on Monday can test me properly finally to see if there are any pathogenic infections causing all this as the two treatments for Ureaplasma (doxy and azithromycin) havn’t seemed to ease my symptoms at all, neither has the Clindamycin from the the dentist. It is just so frustrating & disappointing that all the specialists I’ve seen so far don’t even give a moment of thought to the idea of an infection once their very basic tests don’t show up with anything.

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68 thank you for sharing all your knowledge on here. How is your health now? Hope you are fully recovered?

I recently came across this thread and am very impressed with your research and determination. It’s scary how little knowledge mainstream doctors seem to have on these matters.

My health journey is still a puzzle and I certainly believe I am struggling with pathogenic bacterial infections as I have had recurring UTI problems (which were excruciating) over the last 8 years that never showed up anything on the doctor’s very basic urine tests and never responded to the typical prescribed antibiotics. In the past year or so this seems to have developed into a constant pain in the urethra and bladder and I have developed IBS now as well.

Since going on my own intense investigation similar to yours I have since discovered that I do have Ureaplasma (which is hopefully gone now but have to wait 3 weeks now after my treatment to check) and I also found that I have 3 failed root canal treatment infections, which my new very brilliant holistic dentist informed me of. The mainstream dentists never informed me about this problem which I must have had for a good few years. It seems that root canal treatments are very detrimental to health because they actually harbour infection (because not all of the small branches are filled, only the larger roots and research has shown it to be impossible to completely sterilise a root canal) and so they can leak pathogenic bacteria into the surrounding tissue to pick up a free ride to any location in the body - we just aren’t aware of any of this because obviously the nerve has been killed in the root canal so we don’t feel any pain.

I’ve had two of my root canals extracted so far and am just waiting on the third one which looks to have a large infection in the jaw under it. I’ve also developed terrible brain fog, dizziness and chest pains as well as the worsening pelvic, bladder, urethra, abdominal pains and bloating.

I’m hopeful that the specialist physician I’m seeing on Monday can test me properly finally to see if there are any pathogenic infections causing all this as the two treatments for Ureaplasma (doxy and azithromycin) havn’t seemed to ease my symptoms at all, neither has the Clindamycin from the the dentist. It is just so frustrating & disappointing that all the specialists I’ve seen so far don’t even give a moment of thought to the idea of an infection once their very basic tests don’t show up with anything.

Hi @lorazapora, thanks for taking the time to trudge through this thread. Personally, I am pretty good, I am now trying to undo some of the damage that this has caused me.

I have just had similar conversations with my dentist about root canal treatment and he also stated the ‘alternatives’ practitioners believe extraction is the only way .... personally, I agree with your statements and they are a source of bacterial invasion. However, there is a distinct possibility that these are not the underlying cause of your bigger problem but they may well be contributing to it.

There is a very simple reason why they can’t find any pathogen causing your IC is because technically, there is none ..... as a result of the research that I have conducted through this thread, I have concluded that Coagulese Negative Staphlyococcus species, particularly Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis are the biggest cause of this condition. Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis is also the most populous bacteria on our body ...... it is considered normal flora of the vagina, skin, mouth, throat and eyes, but is uncommon in the gut.

The biggest cause of medical catheter infection is Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis. How does it happen, basically as the catheter is inserted into the urethra, some of these bacteria stick to the catheter and are pushed into the bladder ..... they are very slow growing but eventually cause inflammation in the bladder ..... getting a positive result is still difficult because they stick to the bladder wall like tartar does to teeth, so they aren’t swimming around in urine like other infections do .....

What makes them stick .... they eat sugar and convert it to slime .... it is this slime that is absorbed into the blood stream and hardens around the bacteria just like tartar on teeth, and it is this slime that causes the immune system to over react ..... I believe this slime that is absorbed collects in blood filters like the thyroid, pancreas, kidneys etc. and causes calcification ..... but this is another story.

During a female cycle, the cervix starts pumping out sugar 8 to 10 days before the period starts, this is when these bacteria start producing bucketloads of slime, which can remove the resident good bacteria and in severe cases cause vaginitis. The slime contains a polysaccharide intercellular adhesion (PIA) and this what is causing the damage.

In your case, you have used doxycycline and azithromycin and clindamycin .... all of these are pretty much ineffective on Staphlyococcus species but can disrupt the regular flora .... the staph keeps growing, the good guys are being killed off ..... so Staphlyococcus colony takes over ..... but according to the labs, it is still normal flora .....

There are some things that can probably still be done ....

1. Choice of antibiotics.... keflex may be a viable option ..... do not use penicillins, doxycycline, fluroquinolines or macrolides such as azithromycin And definitely not clindamycin...... clindamycin unlocks genetic material in staph that leads to MRSA .....

2. Talk to your doctor about cutting off the sugar source in the vagina ...... manipulating the contraceptive pill can stop periods for a time .... I would consider this while taking treatment ...

3. No unprotected sex, semen is full of sugar and dislodges the good flora while feeding the staph .... it can also carry staph past the cervix into the womb ..... this causes preterm delivery when pregnant. PIA damages the membranes protecting the foetus.

4. Using antiseptic surgical scrub around the vagina and anus to try and remove the PIA producing strains. Not all these bacteria produce PIA and you could take samples from different sites around your body and find different strains producing different levels of PIA .... the issue is when PIA producing strains have access to sugar .....

5. Using accepted practices for MRSA vagina decolonisation is a good place to start your research .... betadine pessiaries are an option ...... but they aren’t widely used anymore in the West ....

6. Betadine mouth wash and xylitol in eyes and up the nose.

And with all this bacteria killing ..... multiple probiotics including kefir, sauerkraut and kombucha ....

I hope that helps.

Cheers.

 

[dom_hend123]

@Elph68
I have shown Ureaplasma and Enterococcous bacteria on tests. What do you suggest I fight first. I ask because you state macrolides, doxy, moxi etc make things worse but they are the only abx that work on Ureaplasma. Is Enterococcous the underlying superbug issue causing the Ureaplasma to latch on as opportunistic bacteria, therefore kill Enterococcous first?

Thanks

 

[ljimbo423]

@dom_hend123 - Ken Lassesen has recovered 3 times from CFS by treating his gut infections/overgrowth. He is fully recovered now and has been for at least a few years or so.

This chart below is what his research into killing pathogens in the gut with herbs found. Notice that one of the columns is for Enterococcus.

He has blogged extensively about his experience here.

Jim

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68
I have shown Ureaplasma and Enterococcous bacteria on tests. What do you suggest I fight first. I ask because you state macrolides, doxy, moxi etc make things worse but they are the only abx that work on Ureaplasma. Is Enterococcous the underlying superbug issue causing the Ureaplasma to latch on as opportunistic bacteria, therefore kill Enterococcous first?

Thanks

Hi @dom_hend123, sorry I have been a bit elusive, I have had to move house but I have had to renovate the one I was moving into before it could happen. So I will try and help out as much as I can.

I know you are referring to a specific condition and would like to know more about China and any possible side effects from treating prostatitis.

The question I am asked the most about is erectile dysfunction after treatment. I can only speak from personal experience and my knowledge of the people I was there with. I was there for 6 weeks in total and had over 90 injections into my prostate. I also had 10 days of IV abx and 7 days of urethra filling ..... I would certainly do it all again. I have had no side effects. I was over there with 4 other Australians, one of them was on his second visit and we are still in contact with each other. None of them have had any side effects either. Apart from that, I can't say.

Enterococcus and ureaplasma are both known causes of prostatitis, so by presenting your test results to a local uroligist you may be able to convince them to treat you ...... Personally, I would still go to Changsha because they use 'hot shots' administered locally ..... thus reducing the systemic microbiota damage that the broad spectrum abx will do taken orally. There is also very little chance of abx resistance development because the bacteria receive a high dose administered locally. I had almost instant relief from the burning after the first injections.

The second question that you need to ask is are these the cause of your CFS issues or are they just a symptom of a bigger underlying problem. This is something I am feeling more confident now about answering.

One of the questions that is constantly asked is 'These bacteria are found on everybody, so why am I so sick (CFS)?' Ureaplasma is very common and it does not effect most people. Enterococcus is also very common and again it does not affect most people. These bacteria generally only affect the elderly or when they are given an opportunity. The answer to this question is our immune system.

I believe the reason our bodies over react to many of these bacteria is because we have an underlying problem that has caused our immune system to dysfunction. It is likely that our immune system is overstimulated and therefore over reacts to all sorts of conditions/toxins that don't affect other people. I have stated previously that I believe that one of the causes of this overstimulation is polysaccharides.

Enterococcus in the prostate .... very bad. Treatment for enterococcus prostatitis is moxifloxican for 4 to 6 weeks, with a high chance of relapse. If you have been previously treated with Ciprofloxican, moxifloxican probably won't work, and you end up with some very nasty abx resistant superbugs in your microflora. Any treatment you do will also need to be duplicated in your partner. Both of these can take up residence in the cervix.

Long term, these bacteria cause cancer .... So the longer you leave them in there, the more likely you will be dealing with a bigger problem later on.

I hope this information helps.

Cheers.

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68 what are the supps you stay on mate?

Hi @knackers323, sorry, I missed this one....

Currently I use:

Fish oil caps
Glucosamine
Proteolitic enzymes
Natural vitamin E
Vitamin K2-7
magnesium
CoQ10
xylitol eye drops
iodine drops
Prescript assist SBO's
Horny Goat Weed
D-lactate free probiotics
milk kefir
yakult
Daily sunshine

I also follow a paleo style diet .... without the fruit/honey

Cheers.

 

[MeSci]

The biggest cause of medical catheter infection is Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis.

I think you mean Staphylococcus epidermidis: https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Staphylococcus+epidermidis

 

[Elph68]

I think you mean Staphylococcus epidermidis: https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Staphylococcus epidermidis

That I do .... thanks @MeSci

 

[Elph68]

I know there are some people who have struggled with acne in the past. The bacteria that causes acne is found in the hair follicles of pretty much everybody. So why do some people suffer and others don't? There is a strong argument that suggests it is due to the other bacteria that inhabit the skin.

Hair follicles use glucose as their main food source,so at the base of follicles there is easy access to 'sugar'. Resident bacteria can invade the hair follicle, consume the sugar, convert it to polysaccharides, set up an inflammation which compromises the immune system allowing acne to do its thing ......

You may be interested to know that Staphylococcus epidermidis is implicated in this affliction. This article is worth looking at if this area is relevant to you.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1027811715001457

 

[Elph68]

@Elph68 thank you for sharing all your knowledge on here. How is your health now? Hope you are fully recovered?

I recently came across this thread and am very impressed with your research and determination. It’s scary how little knowledge mainstream doctors seem to have on these matters.

My health journey is still a puzzle and I certainly believe I am struggling with pathogenic bacterial infections as I have had recurring UTI problems (which were excruciating) over the last 8 years that never showed up anything on the doctor’s very basic urine tests and never responded to the typical prescribed antibiotics. In the past year or so this seems to have developed into a constant pain in the urethra and bladder and I have developed IBS now as well.

Since going on my own intense investigation similar to yours I have since discovered that I do have Ureaplasma (which is hopefully gone now but have to wait 3 weeks now after my treatment to check) and I also found that I have 3 failed root canal treatment infections, which my new very brilliant holistic dentist informed me of. The mainstream dentists never informed me about this problem which I must have had for a good few years. It seems that root canal treatments are very detrimental to health because they actually harbour infection (because not all of the small branches are filled, only the larger roots and research has shown it to be impossible to completely sterilise a root canal) and so they can leak pathogenic bacteria into the surrounding tissue to pick up a free ride to any location in the body - we just aren’t aware of any of this because obviously the nerve has been killed in the root canal so we don’t feel any pain.

I’ve had two of my root canals extracted so far and am just waiting on the third one which looks to have a large infection in the jaw under it. I’ve also developed terrible brain fog, dizziness and chest pains as well as the worsening pelvic, bladder, urethra, abdominal pains and bloating.

I’m hopeful that the specialist physician I’m seeing on Monday can test me properly finally to see if there are any pathogenic infections causing all this as the two treatments for Ureaplasma (doxy and azithromycin) havn’t seemed to ease my symptoms at all, neither has the Clindamycin from the the dentist. It is just so frustrating & disappointing that all the specialists I’ve seen so far don’t even give a moment of thought to the idea of an infection once their very basic tests don’t show up with anything.

Hi @lorazapora , I thought you may find this article relevant. Like you I have been dealing with the option of root canal treatment because of cracked teeth. My problem was the nerves could not be deadened, he said the whole nerve was infected, but there was no abscess.

This is a good article as it explains that what pathologists have been calling 'normal flora' or a contaminant is in fact the root cause of the infection .....

http://jcm.asm.org/content/48/11/3859.full

For those who really can't understand why pathology tests 'can't find anything' may like to just look at this article also. And again, it is our good friend Staphylococcus Epidermidis ....

The undetectable infection has always been there .... the pathologists just aren't looking for it ......

 

[Wishful]

@Elph68 , in the earlier stages of my ME, when I thought it was a type IV food sensitivity, my rosacea severity correlated with the immune system activation. If I ate something that made me feel worse, my skin flared up. If I was feeling a bit better, my skin cleared up. I'm not sure of the specifics about why it worked that way, but I thought it was an interesting correlation.

 

[deeterm]

@Elph68 would you recommend Dr Song for people who do not have prostatitis? I also have been considering Phage therapy. This article makes some good points about phage therapy which makes me skeptical about doing such treatment
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/...roblem-of-antibiotic-resistance/#5515c0abbf3f

 

[dom_hend123]

@Elph68
I have had Enterococcous and Staph Epidermidis detected recently at levels of about 10^5 in semen. Will be undergoing Phage therapy in Georgia this week. Mean while I've had 3 PCR tests and 2 growth tests negative for Ureaplasma. I ve developed a sore throat on/off and red, burning, itchy eyes and my nose is constantly stuffed with dried mucus. No CFS as of now, just proatatitis and above symptoms.

Do you you think all these symptoms are caused by a dormant Ureaplasma infection, or its these Enterococcous and Staph. Epidermidis infections?

 

[lorazapora]

Hi @lorazapora, thanks for taking the time to trudge through this thread. Personally, I am pretty good, I am now trying to undo some of the damage that this has caused me.

I have just had similar conversations with my dentist about root canal treatment and he also stated the ‘alternatives’ practitioners believe extraction is the only way .... personally, I agree with your statements and they are a source of bacterial invasion. However, there is a distinct possibility that these are not the underlying cause of your bigger problem but they may well be contributing to it.

There is a very simple reason why they can’t find any pathogen causing your IC is because technically, there is none ..... as a result of the research that I have conducted through this thread, I have concluded that Coagulese Negative Staphlyococcus species, particularly Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis are the biggest cause of this condition. Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis is also the most populous bacteria on our body ...... it is considered normal flora of the vagina, skin, mouth, throat and eyes, but is uncommon in the gut.

The biggest cause of medical catheter infection is Staphlyococcus Eperdidimis. How does it happen, basically as the catheter is inserted into the urethra, some of these bacteria stick to the catheter and are pushed into the bladder ..... they are very slow growing but eventually cause inflammation in the bladder ..... getting a positive result is still difficult because they stick to the bladder wall like tartar does to teeth, so they aren’t swimming around in urine like other infections do .....

What makes them stick .... they eat sugar and convert it to slime .... it is this slime that is absorbed into the blood stream and hardens around the bacteria just like tartar on teeth, and it is this slime that causes the immune system to over react ..... I believe this slime that is absorbed collects in blood filters like the thyroid, pancreas, kidneys etc. and causes calcification ..... but this is another story.

During a female cycle, the cervix starts pumping out sugar 8 to 10 days before the period starts, this is when these bacteria start producing bucketloads of slime, which can remove the resident good bacteria and in severe cases cause vaginitis. The slime contains a polysaccharide intercellular adhesion (PIA) and this what is causing the damage.

In your case, you have used doxycycline and azithromycin and clindamycin .... all of these are pretty much ineffective on Staphlyococcus species but can disrupt the regular flora .... the staph keeps growing, the good guys are being killed off ..... so Staphlyococcus colony takes over ..... but according to the labs, it is still normal flora .....

There are some things that can probably still be done ....

1. Choice of antibiotics.... keflex may be a viable option ..... do not use penicillins, doxycycline, fluroquinolines or macrolides such as azithromycin And definitely not clindamycin...... clindamycin unlocks genetic material in staph that leads to MRSA .....

2. Talk to your doctor about cutting off the sugar source in the vagina ...... manipulating the contraceptive pill can stop periods for a time .... I would consider this while taking treatment ...

3. No unprotected sex, semen is full of sugar and dislodges the good flora while feeding the staph .... it can also carry staph past the cervix into the womb ..... this causes preterm delivery when pregnant. PIA damages the membranes protecting the foetus.

4. Using antiseptic surgical scrub around the vagina and anus to try and remove the PIA producing strains. Not all these bacteria produce PIA and you could take samples from different sites around your body and find different strains producing different levels of PIA .... the issue is when PIA producing strains have access to sugar .....

5. Using accepted practices for MRSA vagina decolonisation is a good place to start your research .... betadine pessiaries are an option ...... but they aren’t widely used anymore in the West ....

6. Betadine mouth wash and xylitol in eyes and up the nose.

And with all this bacteria killing ..... multiple probiotics including kefir, sauerkraut and kombucha ....

I hope that helps.

Cheers.

Hi Elph, thanks I really appreciated your quick response, support and helpful advice. How is your health these days?

Just wanted to update you as I have just got back my results from the 2 week urine broth culture where they eventually found 3 enterococous colonies and some E. coli infection (it’s so bad that all the standard urine tests I have had over the years came up negative as they are not using effective testing methods in the UK and there only seems to be one or two Urologists in the country who send off these broth cultures) I also got the results in from my GI map pathogen plus stool test showing I have over 100x the normal levels of Enterococous Faecium and Faecalis as well as very high Morganella spp. and high Streptococous spp. and Klebsiella pneumoniae.

Feeling relieved now that all my root canal infections have been removed as each time one was removed I got very ill for a few days with very bad chest pains and tight breathing and I’ve also had a lot of the pins and needles and numbness in the extremities problem (I agree that enterococous could be triggering this) Thankfully these symptoms are starting to ease a bit now but the bladder and lower abdominal pains and bloating are still severe. The urologist put me on 2 weeks of Macrobid and on day seven I actually have worse Urethra and bladder burning pains so it doesn’t seem to be working.

Today I have just bought some Thyme oil (now that I now what I’m dealing with) as in @ljimbo423 ‘s table of natural antibiotics (which was so helpful by the way thanks for sharing) it comes out as the most potent natural antibiotic against enterococous which I checked is backed by research. Praying that this is nature’s potent antibiotic answer to my current pains. I wonder if it may help my issue with red spots on face too as nothing has been able to shift them.

 

[ljimbo423]

Today I have just bought some Thyme oil (now that I now what I’m dealing with) as in @ljimbo423 ‘s table of natural antibiotics (which was so helpful by the way thanks for sharing) it comes out as the most potent natural antibiotic against enterococous which I checked is backed by research. Praying that this is nature’s potent antibiotic answer to my current pains. I wonder if it may help my issue with red spots on face too as nothing has been able to shift them.

Hi lorazapora- I'm glad you have found that herb table helpful. It's helping me a lot too. I don't know if Thyme oil will help the red spots on your face but many skin problems can be traced back to the gut.

Thyme oil is very strong stuff. It could cause a strong die-off effect. I would start with a very low dose and see how you react to it for 3 days.

Then use that as a gauge to your dosing. The reason I say to stay on the same dose for 3 days is that it often takes 3 days for the full effects of die-off to be felt.

Jim

 

[ebethc]

@Elph68 , in the earlier stages of my ME, when I thought it was a type IV food sensitivity, my rosacea severity correlated with the immune system activation. If I ate something that made me feel worse, my skin flared up. If I was feeling a bit better, my skin cleared up. I'm not sure of the specifics about why it worked that way, but I thought it was an interesting correlation.

what do you do for rosacea? I have had problems this year, and only recently figured out what it was... I thought it was acne, which is weird b/c I've never had an acne problem, or maybe some kind of bacterial infection. I don't know too much about rosacea and am trying to learn

 

[Wishful]

I don't do anything for rosacea. I don't have a social life, so I don't care much about my appearance. Some days I notice painful spots, some days I don't. I simply don't find it important enough to even think about. If I do notice that it's particularly bad on a given day, I think about what might have activated my immune system.

I do wonder if immune system activation is a prime factor in rosacea severity in non-ME/CFS people. A quick googling shows that some research is showing that it might be true.

 

[percyval577]

In all the last three autumns both my rosacea and my me/cfs have been vanished parallely for about 5-14 days (elevating melatonin, I think).
Accordingly, to treat my rosacea topically was not a good idea, because instead my me/cfs grew higher then (pretty uncomfortable). So I am realy happy with my rosacea. One doctor though gave me a warning: "If you suddenly feel blurred or if you are lacking speech, you must immediatly call an emergency. It would be a sinus trombosis."

 

[dom_hend123]

Can Thyme Oil be consumed orally to fight Enterococcous in intestines and prostate? If so what supplement and dosage is ideal?

 

[lorazapora]

Can Thyme Oil be consumed orally to fight Enterococcous in intestines and prostate? If so what supplement and dosage is ideal?

Not sure, but it would be interesting to see if there is any research on this. I have been taking Thyme supplements because it is quite hard to find a pure organic Thyme oil from a trusted source.