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Davis speech from Millions Missing. Some new info on metabolic trap hypothesis

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
Over the last months I listened to Dr Ian Lipkin, Dr. Jarred Younger, Dr. Alain Moreau, Dr Zaher Nahle and Dr. Walter Koroshetz, saying that ME/CFS could have different subtypes (or even diseases) and that most likely would need different treatments for each one.

This is now my personal opinion (that ME/CFS is at minimum several sub-types, but more likely several different diseases) although I have absolutely nothing scientific to back up this claim. It is just my opinion now.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
This is now my personal opinion (that ME/CFS is at minimum several sub-types, but more likely several different diseases) although I have absolutely nothing scientific to back up this claim. It is just my opinion now.

same here!

CFS is a "bucket" for a bunch of immune illnesses w/o protocols and even basic answers... I think immune illnesses are a tsunami of b.s. that hit the human genome so fast that most people haven't woken up to what is happening...
 

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anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
I may be reading stuff into things here (especially as I just finished reading some circadian hormone related articles) but it sounds like he could - possibly?? - be suggesting a process which is supposed to occur overnight may be in a precarious state in some people.
When combined with enough of a stressor or stressors predisposed people may be caught in a "trap".
Still interested in seeing this theory develop.
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I think immune illnesses are a tsunami of b.s. that hit the human genome so fast that most people haven't woken up to what is happening...

I'm not sure if I understand? I definitely do not think that any of it is b.s. and I believe that all of it is very, very real. I just do not believe that it is all one thing vs. an illness with many sub-types or even several separate illnesses that got lumped into one (at least in the US) under the term "CFS".
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
I'm not sure if I understand? I definitely do not think that any of it is b.s. and I believe that all of it is very, very real.

lol... of course I believe that my illness is real... and of course I think the situation is b.s. :)

I just do not believe that it is all one thing vs. an illness with many sub-types or even several separate illnesses that got lumped into one (at least in the US) under the term "CFS".

I think that's exactly what I said :)
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
I think immune illnesses are a tsunami of b.s. that hit the human genome so fast that most people haven't woken up to what is happening...
Is this because you think that modern toxins, nutrient depletion, and other poisons and stressors push the genetic adaptations we have beyond their limits?

I think Ron Davis has a tentative view that ME and CFS are so complex that one single definition might not really match the reality. One biomarker might not either. How medicine defines an illness is often not as clear cut as most doctors make it out. As a result one single cure delivered one way will probably not be enough for everyone.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Is this because you think that modern toxins, nutrient depletion, and other poisons and stressors push the genetic adaptations we have beyond their limits?

I think Ron Davis has a tentative view that ME and CFS are so complex that one single definition might not really match the reality. One biomarker might not either. How medicine defines an illness is often not as clear cut as most doctors make it out. As a result one single cure delivered one way will probably not be enough for everyone.

I think "CFS" is a big bucket of undefined, nebulous immune illnesses - def not a single illness, and probably not even a single illness w subtypes

I don't think that the human genome changes that much in 1-2 generations, so it must be something in the environment - or, more likely, a combination of things - but I don't know...
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
lol... of course I believe that my illness is real... and of course I think the situation is b.s. :)

Sorry I was confused when you said that immune illnesses were a tsunami of BS! You meant the labeling of different illnesses as "CFS" is the b.s. part? (I know you believe your illness is real and that wasn't what I meant at all)! Sorry for my confusion.

I think "CFS" is a big bucket of undefined, nebulous immune illnesses - def not a single illness, and probably not even a single illness w subtypes

I agree with this and I think just the word b.s. through me off. No worries!
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Seems like it's an idea so vague and unfleshed out that you can't even call it a theory.

It's not even a hypothesis as there are no specific testable ideas yet. At best they're holding back their specific ideas, but I don't think that is helpful for the field (unless they want to take all the credit for a discovery...)
 

ljimbo423

Senior Member
Messages
4,705
Location
United States, New Hampshire
I think immune illnesses are a tsunami of b.s. that hit the human genome so fast that most people haven't woken up to what is happening...
upload_2018-5-15_13-25-50.png

Hi ebethc - If you look at the right hand side of this picture. You see the "incidence of immune disorders" starts to increase dramatically around 1950. The first widely used antibiotics came out in the late 1940's. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Since then they have become more and more potent and are being used more and more often. I think there is a very strong connection between antibiotics causing dysbiosis and increased intestinal permeability and the big increase in immune disorders.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the 4 NIH funded ME/CFS research centers are focused on 4 things. The gut, immune system, metabolomics and the brain.

I think dysbiosis and an increased intestinal permeability, ties all 4 of these things together. The researchers have to show how it's all connected in the body though, biochemically.

Hopefully, with a little luck and all their expertise and acquired knowledge, this will happen sooner rather than later.:thumbsup:

Jim
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
Sorry I was confused when you said that immune illnesses were a tsunami of BS! You meant the labeling of different illnesses as "CFS" is the b.s. part? (I know you believe your illness is real and that wasn't what I meant at all)! Sorry for my confusion.

No worries... I am frequently confused :)

I mean that the immune illnesses are a tsunami of b.s. (including but not limited to CFS), as in the fact that this exists and we have to deal w it is complete b.s... when I wake up in the morning and still feel lousy even though there's so much I want to do and have to do in life and my body isn't cooperating... it's b.s.
 

ebethc

Senior Member
Messages
1,901
View attachment 27228
Hi ebethc - If you look at the right hand side of this picture. You see the "incidence of immune disorders" starts to increase dramatically around 1950. The first widely used antibiotics came out in the late 1940's. I don't think that's a coincidence.

yes, the "hygiene hypothesis" is a popular theory of immune illness...I think it's a solid idea, but we don't know..

View attachment 27228
I also don't think it's a coincidence that the 4 NIH funded ME/CFS research centers are focused on 4 things. The gut, immune system, metabolomics and the brain.

who's doing work on gut besides lipkin? he's really focused on the viral - gut connection... I don't think he's looking at genes... e.g., I homozygous for FUT2 mutations, but I don't know if anyone's even looking at that...
https://metabolichealing.com/fut2-gene-mutations-your-gut-flora/