Virus titer results from Dr. Chia... what does it mean?

[Dallase1]

I recently was tested and gained some information on my immune system.
HHV6, EBV, and CMV were negative. However, Echovirus 30 was high 1:640 and Cocsackie B4 was borderline high 1:320. My IGG3 subclass was a little low. My CD4a and CD8 were low as well (they dropped by half of what they were three months ago). Any thoughts on what it all means? Any on have similar tests?
I’m scared to try equilibrant due to many people experiencing bad reactions.

 

[Hip]

By Dr Chia's criteria, your EV30 titer of 1:640 suggests a chronic active enterovirus infection, for which Chia often prescribes oxymatrine. I am not sure where you read that lots of people experience bad reactions to oxymatrine, as this herbal extract is usually quite well tolerated. You usually start at a low dose and work up the dose slowly so that you ease into the treatment. It is contraindicated for those with autoimmune tendencies though.

You might find this thread useful:
Who's Had Their Coxsackie B Virus and Echovirus Antibody Titers Tested at ARUP Lab?

 

[heapsreal]

I’m scared to try equilibrant due to many people experiencing bad reactions.

If you get a bad reaction that you cant tolerate, you just stop oxymatrine.
You could also try interferon inducers like immunovir/isoprinosine.

 

[Dallase1]

By Dr Chia's criteria, your EV30 titer of 1:640 suggests a chronic active enterovirus infection, for which Chia often prescribes oxymatrine. I am not sure where you read that lots of people experience bad reactions to oxymatrine, as this herbal extract is usually quite well tolerated. You usually start at a low dose and work up the dose slowly so that you ease into the treatment. It is contraindicated for those with autoimmune tendencies though.

You might find this thread useful:
Who's Had Their Coxsackie B Virus and Echovirus Antibody Titers Tested at ARUP Lab?

Thanks. Due to so many ingredients in the Equilibrant I’m hesitant to try it. Can I just buy the Oxymatrine separate and take it along with some other immune enhancing herbs? Have people had success with plain Oxymatrine?

 

[Dallase1]

If you get a bad reaction that you cant tolerate, you just stop oxymatrine.
You could also try interferon inducers like immunovir/isoprinosine.

Can I just take pure Oxymatrine? Have you found inosine to be effective?

 

[heapsreal]

Can I just take pure Oxymatrine? Have you found inosine to be effective?

Not inosine, although people say its a substitute, i think immunovir has effects but i never got alot out of inosine itself. If you search ebay for neosine, its a polish brand of immunovir and much cheaper than many other places.

Oxymatrine i havent had any experience but i think there was a brand called white tiger, might be eorth searching. From memory it was just oxymatrine. Just searched it, that brand is correct and its on Amazon .

These things are much easier to find as a few years back it seems, any immunovir was really pricey and oxymatrine was hard to find.

 

[JES]

Thanks. Due to so many ingredients in the Equilibrant I’m hesitant to try it. Can I just buy the Oxymatrine separate and take it along with some other immune enhancing herbs? Have people had success with plain Oxymatrine?

Yes, oxymatrine alone was the original treatment that Chia used before moving to Equilibrant. As far as I remember, there wasn't a huge difference in efficiency between oxymatrine and Equilibrant. The brands that produce pure oxymatrine are White Tiger and Alternative Medicine Solutions, of which the latter is usually easier to find online.

 

[Hip]

Can I just buy the Oxymatrine separate and take it along with some other immune enhancing herbs?

Yes, that's fine to take oxymatrine on its own. I suggest the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine: that did not cause me any dizziness when I took it, whereas White Tiger oxymatrine would make me a little dizzy for an hour or so after taking each tablet. I am guessing this is because White Tiger contains matrine as well as oxymatrine, whereas the Alternative Medicine Solutions is just pure oxymatrine.




Some Sources for Oxymatrine

Equilibrant oxymatrine tablets (Dr John Chia's brand) available at equilibranthealth

Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine (300 mg oxymatrine per capsule) available here:
alternativemedicinesolution • betterlife • alchemistlab • organicpharmacy • amazon

White Tiger brand oxymatrine (200 mg oxymatrine per tablet) available here:
chineseherbs • acuatlanta • naturalnutritionals • goldenneedleonline • maxnature • biomedonline (Netherlands)

I found the White Tiger brand (which contains both matrine and oxymatrine) caused dizziness for an hour or so after taking each tablet, whereas the Alternative Medicine Solutions brand (which contains only pure oxymatrine) did not cause this side effect.

Note that Dr Chia says oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders.

 

[Dallase1]

Yes, that's fine to take oxymatrine on its own. I suggest the Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine: that did not cause me any dizziness when I took it, whereas White Tiger oxymatrine would make me a little dizzy for an hour or so after taking each tablet. I am guessing this is because White Tiger contains matrine as well as oxymatrine, whereas the Alternative Medicine Solutions is just pure oxymatrine.


Some Sources for Oxymatrine:

Equilibrant (Dr Chia's brand) oxymatrine tablets are available here.

Alternative Medicine Solutions oxymatrine capsules containing 300 mg of oxymatrine powder per capsule are available here: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

White Tiger brand oxymatrine tablets, containing 200 mg oxymatrine per tablet, can be found here: 1, 2, 3, 4 and a European source: 5.

Note that Dr Chia says oxymatrine is not recommended for people with autoimmune tendencies or seizure disorders.

My ANA and all autoimmunity numbers are very low. I have no allergies either, so I’m not auntimmune. How many of the oxymatrine tablets did you work up to? I have read people take up to six a day.

 

[Hip]

I have read people take up to six a day.

I worked up to 6 a day, but unfortunately oxymatrine did not help in my case. Oxymatrine only makes major improvements in around 30% of people, according to Dr Chia's figures.

 

[Dallase1]

I worked up to 6 a day, but unfortunately oxymatrine did not help in my case. Oxymatrine only makes major improvements in around 30% of people, according to Dr Chia's figures.

What did work for you? Seems like going after one specific virus doesn’t usually work. Seems like from my observations addressing the whole body helps to strengthen the immune system which helps fight these.

 

[Hip]

What did work for you?

The only thing that worked for me was my high dose selenium protocol. But this protocol did not seem to help other patients who tried it, although there were a few people who benefited. Selenium has antiviral effects for coxsackievirus B, the virus I have.

What did work for you? Seems like going after one specific virus doesn’t usually work.

In general, there's not much that does work well for ME/CFS. If there were an effective treatment, there would not be 17 million people worldwide with ME/CFS.

That said, a subset of patients do respond to some of the standard treatments for ME/CFS, and if you are one of lucky responders, then it can make a major difference, and in some cases patients may even go into remission as a result of treatment.

By a major difference, I mean moving up at least 1 step on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate and severe.

Just recently I was conversing with a forum member with moderate ME/CFS linked to cytomegalovirus infection, and he went into full remission from Valcyte treatment (though needs to keep taking this antiviral else his symptoms return).

 

[Hip]

Seems like going after one specific virus doesn’t usually work.

That not what Dr Lerner found. His studies show that Valtrex and Valcyte are effective for patients with one or more chronic active herpesviruses.

And Dr Chia's informal study on oxymatrine found this treatment to be effective for patients with chronic active enterovirus.

But you have to be lucky, because not every patient responds to these treatments.

 

[Dallase1]

That not what Dr Lerner found. His studies show that Valtrex and Valcyte are effective for patients with one or more chronic active herpesviruses.

And Dr Chia's informal study on oxymatrine found this treatment to be effective for patients with chronic active enterovirus.

But you have to be lucky, because not every patient responds to these treatments.

I’ll try the selenium. I have one other observation from my symptoms. I got a lot better when I took Flagyl for C diff but then relapsed again. I took a breath test for SIBO and the doctor said I probably had hydrogen sulfide from my symptoms. I went on the elemental diet for two weeks and herbs to treat the SIBO. I have gotten significantly better just from that. Are there people with chronic fatigue from hydrogen sulfide SIBO? I really have my doubts about a chronic virus because I don’t have the usual symptoms of swollen lymph nodes, fevers, body aches, respiratory problems, etc.

 

[Dallase1]

That not what Dr Lerner found. His studies show that Valtrex and Valcyte are effective for patients with one or more chronic active herpesviruses.

And Dr Chia's informal study on oxymatrine found this treatment to be effective for patients with chronic active enterovirus.

But you have to be lucky, because not every patient responds to these treatments.

Also, my PCR DNA quantitative results for EBV were undectible, my IGM was below the range for reactivation, but my IGG was high (180, below 20 is no infection).

 

[Hip]

Also, my PCR DNA quantitative results for EBV were undectible, my IGM was below the range for reactivation, but my IGG was high (180, below 20 is no infection).

There is a large learning curve when it comes to understanding viral infection in ME/CFS. It is important to understand why PCR is often negative in ME/CFS, yet IgG is high. For ME/CFS specialists, elevated IgG is interpreted as evidence of chronic active infection even when PCR is negative.

Reading about abortive infection might be a good place to start to climb the learning curve. Abortive infections do not produce viral particles, hence blood PCR is often negative. Lerner proposed abortive herpesvirus infection as a cause of ME/CFS.

HIV infection of CD4 cells is an example of an abortive infection.

Are there people with chronic fatigue from hydrogen sulfide SIBO? I really have my doubts about a chronic virus because I don’t have the usual symptoms of swollen lymph nodes, fevers, body aches, respiratory problems, etc.

You might like to read about non-cytolytic enterovirus infection. You will find plenty of info on this forum. Dr Chia would interpret your echovirus test results as evidence that you have a non-cytolytic enterovirus infection.

Like abortive infections, non-cytolytic infections do not produce any new viral particles. They are a low level infection that smolders away inside human cells (intracellular infection).

Are there people with chronic fatigue from hydrogen sulfide SIBO?

Eradication of SIBO has been shown to improve the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome. Ref: 1

 

[Dallase1]

I have had a history of elevated liver enzymes so I’m a little reluctant to take Valcyte. Are there alternative, natural treatments I can try first? I have read from this forum Monolaurin, Proboost thymic protein, and Liposomal Biocidin are all potent against Herpes viruses. Can you help shed some light on this? I actually bought the Liposomal Biocidin for this reason..

 

[Hip]

It's not clear whether your results show an active herpesvirus infection (though you'd need to have an ME/CFS specialist to interpret them). Whereas you do appear to have an active enterovirus infection, by Dr Chia's criteria. So Valtrex/Valcyte might not be appropriate (as these antivirals target herpesviruses), but oxymatrine would be, as Dr Chia uses this for treating enterovirus.

Oxymatrine is a natural product, as it comes from Sophora root.

I have read from this forum Monolaurin, Proboost thymic protein, and Liposomal Biocidin are all potent against Herpes viruses.

If you read that on an alternative health website, then it does mean anything. They use words like "potent" willy nilly on such sites. But if you asked them how they are actually measuring the potency, they would not be able to tell you.

I tried both monolaurin and Proboost thymic protein without noticing any benefit.

 

[Dallase1]

It's not clear whether your results show an active herpesvirus infection (though you'd need to have an ME/CFS specialist to interpret them). Whereas you do appear to have an active enterovirus infection, by Dr Chia's criteria. So Valtrex/Valcyte might not be appropriate (as these antivirals target herpesviruses), but oxymatrine would be, as Dr Chia uses this for treating enterovirus.

Oxymatrine is a natural product, as it comes from Sophora root.





If you read that on an alternative health website, then it does mean anything. They use words like "potent" willy nilly on such sites. But if you asked them how they are actually measuring the potency, they would not be able to tell you.

I tried both monolaurin and Proboost thymic protein without noticing any benefit.

You’ve been so helpful, thank you! I ordered the oxymatrine. I’ve read lots about LDN and how it helps the immune system. Would you say it’s worth a try? Or Ampligen?

 

[Hip]

You’ve been so helpful, thank you! I ordered the oxymatrine. I’ve read lots about LDN and how it helps the immune system. Would you say it’s worth a try? Or Ampligen?

Generally speaking, if a treatment is effective for ME/CFS, you will usually find it being employed by one or more of the leading ME/CFS specialist doctors. If you look at the list of treatments that these ME/CFS doctors use, it will typically be:

Oxymatrine, Epivir and more recently tenofovir for enterovirus-associated ME/CFS.
Valtrex, Famvir, Valcyte and cidofovir for herpesvirus-associated ME/CFS.

Other treatments that these doctors will use for ME/CFS include:

Low-dose naltrexone
IVIG
Ampligen

There are many further treatments as well that you can also explore, but the above are the main ones that have a good track record.