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Narcotic (Opioid) Pain Medications Relieve Some of my Neurological ME/CFS Symptoms

Messages
236
Location
Medford NJ
Hi , I have tramadol 50mg for pain. My original diagnosis was fibromyalgia. I have made great improvements over the last two years. I am using clonazepam less and less and for me tramadol actually helps with my “ Brain” cognition issues.as well as pain in the morning. As I have gotten better I am now taking mostly just 1 - 50 mg tablet in the morning.


The tramadol I am asssuming Is giving me a norepinephrine and serotonin boost with a boost of endorphins. I am doing mold avoidance which has greatly affected my overall health. I am hopeful that as my health improves i will need tramadol less and less but for now It makes me able to get up and out of the house so I can walk in the forest to avoid mold. A few years ago I could barely leave my house.

My doctor actually is in agreement with me that in my case the tramadol is safer than gobbling down ibuprofen and Tylenol ( which have bad effects on liver / blood pressure for me if I need to constantly take them) which are ineffective for this weird fibro/ cfs pain .

My doctor has known me for 15 years, Others may have major problems with tramadol. If I had issues with opiates I would have probably tried cannabis .
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,300
Location
Ashland, Oregon
What kind of symptoms do you have in the rebound cycle?

Hi @purrsian,

I initially started taking Tylenol 4 for my chronic headaches, and one of the rebound effects was to have a headache "rebound", meaning my headache could get much worse if I wasn't careful with dosing. I noticed that if I tried to take another dose of it within a few hours of taking a 1st dose, my headache would often get worse, and settle in for many more hours.

But sometimes that rebound effect didn't kick in until I'd taken two or three doses, so there were times when I did take it 2-3 days in a row. I then began to notice that I would get somewhat of a "hangover" feeling. Like some neurotransmitters were off or lower than normal, and would be somewhat alleviated by taking another dose. This was when I felt I began to get some insights into why addiction can happen (sometimes VERY easily) when taking opioids.

Having heard enough horror stories of how really good people can so easily becoming addicted, I decided I would be extra judicious in how much I used. I normally say I only take it 1-2x/week, but in reality, I'd be surprised if I used it more than 4-5x/month. But when I do, it's quite effective, and I can feel the benefits for 2 or more days at a time. -- A good tool, but in my case, one to be used judiciously.
due to heavy flu-like feeling and pressure in head.

I've found mixing DMSO + Magnesium OIl helped considerably in alleviating pressure in my head. Let me know if you have any questions on how I used it. I've noticed most people don't give a lot of consideration to alternative therapies like DMSO, even though I believe it should probably be in everyone's medicine cabinet. I also believe that if it could be patented, it could quite possibly be the highest grossing "drug" of all time. It really does have that many good uses.​
 
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purrsian

Senior Member
Messages
344
Being a former registered nurse, I would take you off of any ibuprofen as it can cause massive stomach bleeding. Another thing to look at is how much acetominophen (paracetamol) per 24hrs. you're taking. If you drink alcohol or take other meds you need to back off on the 24 hr limit, also.
You mention sinus-type issues. Have you been seen by a specialist? If you have post-nasal drip from untreated sinusitis, you can easily have nausea (I know this firsthand).
I doubt that it's the codeine that's bothering you if you've tolerated it all this time.
I have cut out all ibuprofen and the gut issues have decreased. No diarrhoea but still have nausea when I am most fatigued. I now take paracetamol plus codeine 15mg approx twice a week and paracetamol on its own maybe once or twice a week for headaches. I wish I could take codeine more often though, it really lessens my crashes.

I haven't seen a specialist about the sinus issues as my CT scans are always perfect and no one has referred me to anyone. They just recommend useless nasal sprays and exhausting nasal washes. I don't have much nasal discharge and I'm pretty sure there isn't any drip - it feels much more internal than a normal sinus infection.

To reflect the difficulties in getting even low dose codeine in Australia now, my partner has chronic back pain from a slipped lumbar disc, something well-documented and completely visible on scans, and even he is struggling to get a prescription for any codeine at all.
 
Messages
34
i have codeine morphine and tramadol in my cabinet. Yet i never tried them. Opioïds are a bit of a mystery for me.if they work to kick my glutamate nemesis in the butt, i might try them once.
 

CreativeB

Senior Member
Messages
482
Location
Scotland
Interesting thread. I hadn't thought about it, but it might be happening when I take my migraine meds too. I'll need to pay closer attention.
 
Messages
18
i have codeine morphine and tramadol in my cabinet. Yet i never tried them. Opioïds are a bit of a mystery for me.if they work to kick my glutamate nemesis in the butt, i might try them once.
what about lyrica? I'm thinking that is safer?
 

GypsyGirl

Senior Member
Messages
165
Location
North Carolina
what about lyrica? I'm thinking that is safer?

Regarding which medications are "safer", I find that's entirely about which side effects and risks are acceptable to you.

I was on Lyrica for 8 months - it made me feel terrible. Brain fog to the point of sounding drunk, increased nerve pain, eventually incontinence. It messed with my nervous system in so many ways.

I've been on different opiates and had some massive side effects with some (I swelled up with the Butrans patch and had trouble breathing - it felt like dying and I had to discontinue after a few days), mild side effects (feeling a little drowsy/out of it, unpleasant crashes) and virtually no effects with others (mild constipation that can be remedied). Of course, opiates are hard to get, scary to be on because of the addictive/dependency issue, and can mess with your body in different ways.

Everyone's different. I've found it best to be cautious, but try what you can. Weird things work and we don't always know why. Best of luck!
 
Messages
34
I wonder if opoids relieve some symptoms cause they are immune system suppressant. Like when i'm sick my anxiety and brain fog magically disappear like a lot of people here. It's like when my immune system is occupied fighting a virus, it gives my brainfog a rest. That drives me crazy.

what about lyrica? I'm thinking that is safer?

I'm already on xanax for 2 years and starting to hit some hard dependency. I'm sad cause it worked wonders for me. It annihilated every symtoms i had. Most people feel foggy with benzos but in my case i feel so sharp and clear headed. My doctor doesn't understand. There must be an explanation somewhere tho. I'm not even sure it's a glutamate problem anymore.
 
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bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
I was on Lyrica for 8 months - it made me feel terrible. Brain fog to the point of sounding drunk, increased nerve pain, eventually incontinence. It messed with my nervous system in so many ways

I guess this is where one realises we are all different. I am on Day 4 of going cold turkey to get off almost daily painkillers for chronic migraine and so far it is positive but I couldn't have got through the past days without 25 mg x 2 Lyrica. It has helped to ease the almost constant pain in my head as the day goes on. I find that I can cope and by not taking the usual paracetamol and often a Triptan too or CoCodamol for the pain I have much better energy too. (This is probably also because I have added a lot more fat to my diet and low carb).

The side effects do look horrible regarding Lyrica and I couldn't tolerate even 25 mg Lyrica at first but I have been taking one dose nightly all year and it has helped with sleep but just couldn't tolerate the extreme tiredness it gave me if I took it in the morning. However my body must have got used to it as it is not so bad now. Still a tendency to feeling a bit drugged but if I get up and do something it improves. Still the pain tries to break through every morning switching sides day by day.

I am just praying Lyrica at 50 mg day in a divided dose will get me through the next couple of weeks so I can get over medication overuse migraines.

Pam
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,300
Location
Ashland, Oregon
It has helped to ease the almost constant pain in my head as the day goes on.

Hi Pam,

I sure could relate to your above comment. I had daily constant pain and pressure in my head for literally decades, often becoming severe. The thing that helped me the most to alleviate it was daily coffee enemas. DMSO rubbed liberally on my neck and upper back seemed to relieve a lot of the inflammation, and reduced the pain even further.
 

Stretched

Senior Member
Messages
705
Location
U.S. Atlanta
...My doctor actually is in agreement with me that in my case the tramadol is safer than gobbling down ibuprofen and Tylenol ( which have bad effects on liver / blood pressure for me if I need to constantly take them) which are ineffective for this weird fibro/ cfs pain .

My doctor has known me for 15 years, Others may have major problems with tramadol. If I had issues with opiates I would have probably tried cannabis .

I agree, opiates, the stronger the better alleviates CFS/Fibro pain and other symptoms. A key problem with them is constipation as they relax the muscles in peristalsis,
used in moving stuff through the digestive tract.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I also find it very odd that narcotic pain meds relieve some of my neurological symptoms. Not talking about pain....I get relief of other me/cfs symptoms like brain fog, clarity and memory, visual disturbances, tinnitus, and energy......even some of the PEM. It's not a cover up due to euphoria, it actually relieves some of the symptoms. As far as I understand, opiates would only affect those receptors and have nill to do with other neurological problems.....but they do for me. Must be some downstream effect like on endorphins or something. And it wasn't a fluke because I've had this happen years past as well. NSAIDS don't do this, so it's not an anti-inflammatory effect. I dunno, but I'm not willing to live on narcotics for this purpose. Gonna see what my me/cfs doc has to say about this.
So when I first got lyme which triggered me/cfs, I had different ratio of symptoms, was still sick, but it was weighted more toward extreme brain fog than crushing fatigue, and also insomnia. So I was still in school even though i shouldn't have been (prob. contributed to getting worse but that's another story).
I no longer had good reactions to methylphenidate, which I had been prescribed for ADHD prior to getting sick. It was really weird, the sudden drug intolerance.
Anyway I got this effect from opioids. I had done them before and obviously they are always pleasurable, but when I got this terrible brain fog, opioids were one of the only things that helped; they didn't just help the pain. Unfortunately they were expensive. Anyway I literally could only write my thesis on opioids! normally opoids don't make people productive but they lessened my brain fog so much it was the only clarity I had all semester.

It was whatever I could get but I remember great effects from dihydrocodeine, also oxy.

The thing I remember distinctly was the brain fog feeling like some awful restless feeling, and the opioids feeling very cooling. Soothing, like the feeling of mint in one's throat or something. similar but not identical results from gabapentin, phenibut, and ketamine.
I also did ketamine, sort of for recreational reasons, but I remember it had the similar effect on brain fog. Of course it also puts u in weird cognitive headspace, but at the right dose, it quieted down the brain fog.

The thing that was sort of the holy grail was kratom. It had all these effects but I think it has negative effects like immunosuppression so I don't use it now. But it is both nmda antagonist AND opioid agonist

But yeah, the cooling... feeling soothed and alright... It wasn't just pleasure, it was the only relief from those symptoms. Now I have fatigue more than brain fog so idk if it would help but
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
You might look at the possibility of taking NMDA receptor blockers with you opioid medications, as this seems to help prevent opioid tolerance build up, and so may potentiate the benefits, and reduce addiction potential. Ref: 1.

NMDA receptor blockers include: transdermal magnesium cream, taurine, huperzine A, dextromethorphan.
There is also anecdotal evidence that LDN can totally prevent tolerance when taken alongside opioids. ULDN supposedly attenuates tolerance to a smaller degree.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
I took some codeine recently in the midst of the worst flare I’ve had in awhile. It weirdly didn’t help as much as I thought it would and almost made me feel worse in a way. I think that this anti glutamate effect depends on the opioid. Opioids are thought not to vary much in effect but only in strength but for people w mcas/ me/cfs I think the subtle differences in affinities matter. Codeine and morphine are more sleepy and itchy and thus I would guess much more histaminergic than other opioids. Oxycodone, hydromorphone, I think have higher affinity for the dopamine receptor than do the aforementioned ones and I would guess just based on previous experiences that they are less histaminergic and also have more anti nmda effects.

Unless it’s a breakdown product of the codeine or the acetaminophen in these tablets, which are about fifteen years old, and I don’t think it is based on what I read (but it could be given that they were stored in a house that is sometimes overly cold in the winter and sometimes not cooled w/ ac in the summer, it’s possible ) these tablets are making me feel surprisingly not great, given that earlier in my illness opioids helped a LOT.


Btw lidocaine has been shown to lower glutamate , and since goldstein used it IV but I can’t fet a clinic to do that, I decided taking oral doses that I think could have systemic effects. And while the 20 mg oral dose did worsen my vertigo a little, it seemed to help cool that “brain on fire “ symptom a surprising amount.
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Here is a glowing report about ibudilast research in context of chronic pain and addiction. Copied from the bluelight thread:

"Well since I posted this I've done a massive amount of research into the phenomenon that is called "opiate withdrawals: and have come to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with withdrawals. What appears to be happening is absolutely fascinating and in fact completely turns on its head almost all of the theories about addiction.

So first things first. What is an opiate addiction, and why do you feel the need to use opiates plus, why do you feel sick a'la "dope sick" when you "stop" taking your opiate of choice. Be it, heroin, buprenorphine, Dihydrocodeine, oxymorphol, oxycodone, oxymorphone, morphine - whatever it is what is actually happening? For years people said it was because your MU receptor was in pain. Others said it was agonist this and partial agonist that and whilst other people said it was a karmic rebalancing. If you get really high apparently you have to pay for it by feeling really shitty. Others said it was because you hadn't put your faith in god and others just said you were weak fucked up junkie.

All of this is so wrong. Utterly fucking wrong. I mean the vast majority of ignores biology completely but the the stuff about opiate receptors is based on truths that have been managled by best guesses and very little empirical data / limited animal studies and a anti-drug coalition of governments , law enforcement agencies, massive parasitic drug rehab industry and many other groups who cynically manipulate drug research to ensure its findings keep drugs illegal, especially hard ones like opiates so as to ensure massive amounts of public money flow into their pockets (and allowing for illegal drug to be sold to the western countries and their illegal incomes to fund illegal wars across the planet).

So around 7 years ago cutting edge research carried out between the University of Boulder and Adelaide, by Professor Linda Watkins and Dr Mark Hamilton discovered something utterly amazing that it has utterly changed the paradigm of addiction and drugs.

It will ultimately lead us to a place where you will be able to take opiates without going into withdrawal. You will be able to take as much as you want and you will not become "addicted" or worse become sick when you stop taking them. And this applies to meth and coke as well!

I'm going to paraphrase/boil/summarise their research but essentially this is the deal.

When you take heroin (this applies to any opiate) your body basically breaks it down into two metabolites. One is called M3G (Morphine-3-glucuronide) and the other is M6G (Morphine-6-glucuronide). All opiates basically do this but its a little different with the synthetic opiates like buprenorphine (suboxone) - its metabolites are called buprenorphine-3-glucuronide and buprenorphine-6-glucuronide.

Essentially though the M6G is the stuff that makes you feel high/blocks the pain and all the other great effects that we associate with opiates.

Now, and this is the really really import bit. For many years it was thought that M3G was inactive. This means they thought it did nothing. This is a good example where the "specialists" just made a guess without any actual evidence to back up their findings.

Oh actually it did and it does something so amazing that once you appreciate it, it will fundamentally change how you view addiction.

See M3G binds to a receptor in your brain. It's a funny named receptor, called TLR4 (Toll-Like Receptor 4).

So what does TLR4 you ask. It's primary job is to activate the 'innate immune system'. See when you get sick proteins, presumably from the infection/injury itself bind to TLR which in turn activates your bodies response. Now when you get a flu virus what happens?

You aches and pains, fevers, swelling, you feel awful right. Well a little bit of this comes from the virus itself but much of it comes from TLR4, from a group of chemicals our bodies make that are called proinflammatory cytokines (PC).

From their wiki page; Due to their proinflammatory action, they tend to make a disease worse by producing fever, inflammation, tissue destruction, and in some cases, even shock and death.

There is also research that suggests that PC's are active in causing depression and anxiety.

Does this sound familiar? Anyone here like to let the straighties know what dope sick feels like. Like when your in supposedly withdrawal? I believe the most common refrain/comparisons used to describe opiate withdrawals is to say something like "its like having the flu but times a hundred".

"dope sick" is actually caused by M3G which is made from the heroin/bupe/morphine/methadone/oxy that you've just taken

But wait a minute chugs. I've been told that my withdrawals are caused by a lack of heroin. That because i got really high god is making me sick. I'm going through withdrawals and an intense desire to re-use because i'm weak and i can't control my urges.

No actually ironically enough the reason why you're going through withdrawals and intense desire to use again is because when you've been high on opiates that drug has simultaneously caused a massive quantity of proinflammatory cytokines to build up (M3G use) whilst the powerful pain relieving power of the drug (M6G) has covered up the pain and discomfort caused by inflammatory agents (PCs)

In chronic habitual drug user the elevated levels of these cytokines are crazy high.

In a opiate naive individual, someone who doesn't take opiates regularly the levels of PC's are very low so the pain relieving effect of the opiate last long enough to avoid from feeling any discomfort.

So to summarise. When you take your last shot/pill/hit before going cold turkey that is actually going make your dope sick worse. Its actually going to elevate your proinflammatory cytokine levels. When the pain relieving effects of M6G expire you're hit with the full force of the other effect of the opiate.

As people can attest the time frames also make sense. It can take a good three days for M3G to be metabolised out of your body. Depending on your metabolic rate and other factors it can take upwards of another 5-10 days for the cytokines to be metabolised out as well. This is the usual length of time it takes to get through dope sickness. Which is how i describe it now seeing its not actually "withdrawals".

So a few things. Imagine if heroin didn't have M6G. And you shot it up - and all it had was M3G. You'd go straight into "withdrawals" although it wouldn't be called withdrawals. It would be called dope sick.

Second thing. There is a large body of work that suggests that people who are exposed to stress hormones, cortisol, during early childhood and in the womb have subtle changes made to their brain. The Glia, where TLR4 lives, is apparently different in the brains of those exposed to stress hormones. It also causes significant issues with how our body produces dopamine (the neurotransmitter that helps us be good boys and girls by giving us focus and attention to learn and be obedient.

Now imagine a situation where TLR4 is being activated by some sort of malfunctioning part of the brain during early childhood A small trickle of these PCs have, per the research I've read, all sorts of problems. Depression, anxiety, combined with low dopamine and serotonin levels would create children with all sorts of behavioural problems. ADHD, poor attention in class, inability to focus, depression, anxiety and all sorts of other problems.

You wouldn't know that you're feeling sick, or can't focus because that's how you've always been. If you come from a childhood full of stress and abuse I'd imagine this is even worse.

This explains the wide differences between drug users. Its clear that people have suffered terrible abuse tend to be the most dysfunctional when it comes living and drug use. They have the biggest tolerances to drugs and require massive amounts (why because they've already got elevated levels of these proinflammatory cytokines).

And this has all be confirmed in animal studies. In one of the papers that Hutchinson wrote he basically created for the first time ever, animals addicted to opiates from birth. And he did it by causing physical stress/pain to the mothers before and just after giving birth. He then went and cured the rats from their opiate "addiction" by giving them ibudilast.

And its not just drug use. Overeating, gambling, overspending, excessive fitness/sports power games, and any other habit forming behaviour can create powerful neurotransmitters that alleviate the pain and discomfort caused by this problem.

We weren't born with a choice. We were born in pain. We were born suffering. All of this is confirmed by the very fact that a treatment designed to suppress TLR4 function - ibudilast - is not just working with opiate users but its also working with amphetamine addicts (and most likely cocaine users). In fact there is evidence that suggests it will work with alcohol addiction.

It suggests that there is a universal pathway to addiction and that addiction is primary response to pain and discomfort caused by the build up of incredibly toxic proinflammatory cytokines.

Anyway ibudilast is going to destroy the rehab industry. What I don't understand is why they don't replace morphine/opiate painkillers with M6G. The research shows that pure M6G is a superior agonist (because its not produce any of those nasty inflammatory agents).

Just one last point. Its clear that the researchers are playing a very careful game, making sure they don't pisss off the government but equally working hard to publish and get the research translated into a real world medication. See Hutchinson and Watkins make a huge effort to downplay the massive significance of their research. They tend to use conservative language and description that are in some ways old fashion and quaint. They talk about the research in the context of "withdrawal" and "addiction" when it reality addiction has nothing to do with a compulsion to use drugs without control.

Addiction is when you'll suffer an immense amount of pain if you don't take drug X. So you take it at all possible cost to avoid the huge amount of pain and discomfort that non-taking the drug will cause. Yes there is a degree of wanting to just get high and party but for the most part most people just want to live without pain - just be fucking normal.

So yeah I can't wait for ibudilast to come onto the market. It's going to change alot

references

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783351/
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25386959
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17982582
4. http://www.medicaldaily.com/cure-meth-addiction-fda-fast-tracks-human-trials-ibudilast-244892"

Is this credible? @Hip
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,932
See M3G binds to a receptor in your brain. It's a funny named receptor, called TLR4 (Toll-Like Receptor 4).

So what does TLR4 you ask. It's primary job is to activate the 'innate immune system'. See when you get sick proteins, presumably from the infection/injury itself bind to TLR which in turn activates your bodies response. Now when you get a flu virus what happens?

You aches and pains, fevers, swelling, you feel awful right. Well a little bit of this comes from the virus itself but much of it comes from TLR4, from a group of chemicals our bodies make that are called proinflammatory cytokines (PC).

I thought that TLR4 was mostly activated by bacteria, not virus?

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