LED red intranasal light therapy

[Chris]

Thanks for that info--strikes me as a very high price for those who already have an Alpha--would need to see some serious research results before I spend that kind of money. I think they rather messed up the introduction of the Gamma--the first Alpha had already shown some good results with Alzheimer's (as had the 810 at a much more modest level)--they should have introduced a dual model instead of just adding the Gamma as an alternative, with very little info with which to guide a choice. But I guess they are really focused on trying to hit the bigtime with a successful treatment for Alzheimer's, and I can't blame them too much for that.

 

[raghav]

@Chris As I said I will try hacking the control unit and see if there is a timer for the frequency generation. If the timer is outside the logic chip then I can get it swapped at the local mobile phone repair shop. In fact I might try to make it a kind of dual unit. Lets see.

 

[Chris]

@raghav--wow--brave! I will wait and see --since there is some (not much, but some) evidence that the Alpha 10Hz has some benefit in AD, and we really don't know much about how either affects ME (except that I am pretty convinced that it is very possible to overtreat ME) I will hold on and continue using my Alpha and back that up with the 810 and 633. I will take another few treatments with my MED-X capsules set at 40Hz to try to convince myself whether or not there is some special benefit of that rate with ME.

 

[frozenborderline]

I have looked at some of the research compiled on this stuff. I am fairly convinced. Only thing is I don't know what to get. I'm on a budget, but I don't wanna be "penny wise and pound foolish" as it seems wattage makes a difference when penetrating skin. On the other hand I don't wanna buy an expensive device if I don't need to.

@Hip any thoughts?

 

[Hip]

@Hip any thoughts?

Yes, build your own for just a few $ using the approaches outlined in this post and this post, which are to use cheap prewired LEDs or a $10 infrared illuminator spotlight.

Using the infrared illuminator detailed in the second post, I noticed a mild increase in awareness of incidental details in the environment around me, which I describe in this post.

 

[frozenborderline]

Yes, build your own for just a few $ using the approaches outlined in this post and this post, which are to use cheap prewired LEDs or a $10 infrared illuminator spotlight.

Using the infrared illuminator detailed in the second post, I noticed a mild increase in awareness of incidental details in the environment around me, which I describe in this post.

interesting that you got increased fatigue from it.

I was considering using both red light and infrared (not at the same time) and trying to apply it to the area around my thyroid... might be easier to penetrate than a skull. However, with my brain fog, haven't quite been able to do the math on mW/c2 and figure out if the affordable red light and infrared devices would meet the doses used in studies

 

[frozenborderline]

interesting that you got increased fatigue from it.

I was considering using both red light and infrared (not at the same time) and trying to apply it to the area around my thyroid... might be easier to penetrate than a skull. However, with my brain fog, haven't quite been able to do the math on mW/c2 and figure out if the affordable red light and infrared devices would meet the doses used in studies

It seems like people get dramatic results on surface level things like wounds and skin, but less dramatic results for cognition and fatigue. But the science is there that it does work for things more than skin deep--like hypothyroidism, arthritis, heart issues... I guess the issue is mainly if you can do it without medical grade lasers.

 

[Jamo77]

@perchance dreamer are you still experiencing the mental benefits by using the VLGamma?

@raghav what a shame sounded so promising. I have found quite a few things that have helped my health but they usually prove temporary. It seems the body tends back toward the lower baseline.

 

[Ema]

I'd like to sell my Vielight 810, if anyone is interested in a gently used version. It still works perfectly and is in almost like new condition. I bought it for $499, will sell it for $250. Let me know if interested!

 

[perchance dreamer]

@Jamo77, sorry about my delay in replying. No, I'm not still getting the benefits from my Gamma. I don't know if it's because it's fixed some problems so no longer feels dramatic, or if it just doesn't work for me anymore. At some point, I will got back for a neurofeedback session and have my therapist look at my EEG before a Gamma session and then after.

If my brain does show some improvement after a session, I'll keep using it even though I don't feel benefits from it. I probably had a concussion 5 months ago, and my father had Alzheimer's, so I'm very interested in anything that can help my brain.

 

[Chris]

I may have made a discovery; I am sure most of you are following the Dichloroacetate story as a supplement to the ongoing Naviaux story--metabolomics of ME, Surinam for ADS, next--Surinam for us? Meanwhile Comhaire and DCA may be an inferior substitute. I also have a Vielight Neuro Alpha, and have recently been using it daily. Simultaneously I have taken a break from my DCA, and have been losing the benefits I felt I had been gaining. In reading Naviaux' 2015 paper on using Suramin on mice used to model ADS, I came across this: "Interestingly, many of the neuroprotective and anti-inflammatory effects of minocycline have been traced to its actions on mitochondrial function..and may also act to decrease hyperpurinergia by moderating mitochondrial ATP synthesis." I have not used minocycline, but extra-cellular ATP is one of the key purinergic signaling molecules aimed at by Suramin and other anti-purinergic drugs like DCA, and an increase in ATP is one of the claimed benefits of using LLLT as in the Neuro, focused on the cytochrome thing in Complex 4 of the Electron Transport Chain. So I wonder if the two interventions are working at cross-purposes--so I shall quit using the Neuro while taking DCA and see if that helps. I am taking a short break right now, but will report again after restarting DCA without the Neuro in a couple of days. And maybe this is a clue to why LLLT seems to have been less successful at increasing our energy than we had hoped.

 

[ScottTriGuy]

I just watched (sort of) a webinar about LLLT and took a couple of screenshots for us visual learners.

 

[Chris]

Thanks, Scott--I was registered, but had to make a medical appointment. I also confess that I learn better from words than from most diagrams! Incorrigibly verbal. Still using my Vielight and MED-X units, but also now experimenting with DCA (dichloroacetate) but that is on hold for the time being while another issue gets resolved.

 

[reverseshadow]

I'd like to sell my Vielight 810, if anyone is interested in a gently used version. It still works perfectly and is in almost like new condition. I bought it for $499, will sell it for $250. Let me know if interested!

Hi Ema, do you still have the Vielight 810? I've had a bad TBI and my doctor suggested I try one.

Thanks,

Kurt

 

[Ema]

Hi Ema, do you still have the Vielight 810? I've had a bad TBI and my doctor suggested I try one.

Thanks,

Kurt

I’m sorry, I don’t. I sold it.

 

[serusaert]

i have spent two weeks now testing with a cheap but powerful 650/880 array from amazon that costs $69. i can attest to the effects - it is awesome at calming and improving sleep when applied to the forehead.

the device i got is "36 High Power 880nm NIR Near Infrared LED's (Non Visible) for Deep Penetration, and 13- 640-650nm RED LED's (Visible)" in a small square grid array surrounded by foam.

the maker claims penetration approximately 4" to 9". a reviewer wrote: "I wrote the company, and they are very responsive, saying the total power is 1.5 joules/cm2/minute. This is typical for a device like this (more powerful devices use led lasers and are pulsed - also much more expensive) If you use it for 15 minutes, you are getting a total of over 20 joules/cm2.".

this is somewhat comparable to the power delivered for vielight (which ranges a bit depending on the product and study and is specified in the methods sections of the research studies that use the vielight).

so, i'm all in. i want a vielight, and i want both alpha and gamma, but ouch, the price is seriously high. there is an october sale - 10% off, does anyone know if this sale is normally running?

Edit:

i was inspired by an interview of dr hamblin by mercola where hamblin pointed out that there are very powerful LED flood lights that could cheaply be used (if properly EMF shielded). i found another potential test product, this one an 850 nm flashlight for hunters but i do not know if it properly shielded or if the power is just too insanely high:

UniqueFire T38 IR 850nm LED Night Vision Torch 3 Modes T20 Zoomable Flashlight Memory Function (3 Watts, 38 mm aspherical lense)

i worked out these calculations but i'm not an expert and they could be wrong. it looks like this is an insanely powerful device - the output (264.6) is many times that of vielight 810 nasal (10.56):

Wavelength: 850 nm
Beam spot size: 3.8 cm
Area of spot: 11.34 cm2
Power output, mW: 3000 mW
Power density per LED, mW/cm2: 3000 mW / 11.34 cm2 = 264.6

it seems like this might be a good device to penetrate to deep parts of the body or brain - but care must be taken with the power output. in fact, i deleted the link as i think it's too over-powered and could result in a weird kind of burn.

i was thinking i might actually just make one: https://www.instructables.com/id/810nm-10Hz-LED-Pulsing-Flashlight/
but i looked into the details and it's dodgy. the author is trying to drive a 100mA led from a device that can't put out more than 51mA. he gets it to work but it's not really running at capacity. it looks like making one via raspberry pi or arduino is a bit more complicated due to the fact that these can't sufficiently power the LED.

so, after researching it, i ended up buying the alpha/gamma vielight neuro.

 

[serusaert]

i worry that the FDA will regulate these. it is possible that once approved, one will need a script and lots of $$$$ to buy the post-approval version. you see, when the vielight neuro device application is processed, it's possible the FDA will formally regulate it - especially as they will be reviewing data on what it actually does to the brain (and these are definitely doing something). let's not forget that the FDA is generally more conservative than other similar agencies. i am still very pissed off about the FDA over-regulation of fecal microbiota transplant (they allow it for c. dif. only).

vielight also could pull the retail version once the medical device is approved by the FDA - who knows.

i ordered one. my experiments with a cheapo LED array showed me that this really does something good for me - it hits all the buttons: sleep, fatigue, depression, ptsd, brain fog, and memory.

additionally, i have friends and family i would like to demonstrate it for. i really feel that tools like this and rTMS could be very important tools in normalizing the brain's functioning in me/cfs.

 

[keenly]

http://valtsus.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-therapeutic-effects-of-red-and-near.html

 

[perchance dreamer]

I've started using the Vielight 810 again and find it relaxing and helpful for my sleep.

 

[robson]

Would very much appreciate any feedback from anyone who have bought and tried the Vielight Neuro Duo (alpha/gamma).

In theory it should be a good fit for my profile of issues, but the pricetag is a problem.

Wish you all a happy new year.