Case for BioPsychoSocio Cause of CFS

[TenuousGrip]

Years ago, I had a client who was a fairly famous genetic researcher at a prestigious research university. I asked him about the balance between nature and nurture. I've never forgotten his answer:

"Genetics loads the gun. Environment pulls the trigger."

I have no trouble believing that sustained, inordinate levels of stress (using every possible definition of the word 'stress,' including infection, trauma, insult, injury, etc.) could be the trigger in people genetically predisposed.

I fell apart medically after about six of The Worst Years Of My Life.

My sister-in-law was diagnosed with cancer after about a half-dozen of the most stressful years in her life. Did the stress have anything to do with her cancer ? Maybe. Possibly. Probably.

But we don't really hold most other illnesses -- like my SIL's cancer -- up to the BPS model the way they do with ME/CFS. Instead, we spend less time evaluating the path the patient took before becoming sick and more time treating their disease.

I'd gladly accept the existence of a BPS model that has some relevance in some cases ... IF .... like cancer and all other diseases where 'lifestyle factors' may play some role ... we stopped blaming the patients.

If first responders (eg, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, etc.) acted the way the medical community has toward us ... they'd arrive on the scene of a serious motor vehicle accident and -- instead of extracting the injured driver from the car and administering medical attention -- say

"I'm sorry, but it looks like you made an illegal turn. You're on your own."

:-(

 

[boombachi]

I am lost with where this thread is going. PTSD is a well studied

For something like PTSD, which is generally agreed that it is caused by stress, not all people who experience the same conditions develop PTSD. I'm not sure it makes sense to completely reject stress as a cause, simply because we don't know why some people don't develop PTSD. In terms of stress causing mental health issues, we also have a lot of research on animals showing that stress triggers depression. For bipolar and schizophrenia, stress just seems to be a trigger rather than the main cause.

This review shows some of the factors responsible for stress-related illnesses:

http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/0033-2909.133.1.25



" the time elapsed since stressor onset, (2) the nature of the threat posed, (3) the core emotions likely to be elicited by the stressor, (4) the controllability of the stressor, and (5) the psychiatric characteristics of the person"

PTSD is caused by trauma. This could be considred a type of stress but then it needs to be called trauma if that is what is being studied. I consider depression to be a normal reaction to prolongued stress but that does not make it a mental illness.

 

[femtosecond99]

I am lost with where this thread is going. PTSD is a well studied



PTSD is caused by trauma. This could be considred a type of stress but then it needs to be called trauma if that is what is being studied. I consider depression to be a normal reaction to prolongued stress but that does not make it a mental illness.

Trauma is a type of stress, and depression is a type of mental illness. But I agree that it's silly to argue semantics. More important is to understand the underlying biology.

 

[JES]

Toxic exposure in GWI isn't holding up, as the same number of Afghanistan veterans have chronic multi-symptom illness (30%). 98% of the veterans with CMI also have PTSD (https://www.research.va.gov/currents/0516-2.cfm).

It should then also apply for Iraq war veterans, but there has been very little written about Iraq war and CFS. I can only presume it is because CFS hasn't been happening at the same rates for soldiers in the Iraq war, especially when we consider that in today's social media world it's much harder to hide this kind of phenomenon than 20 years ago during the Gulf War. If there was a big bunch of Iraq veterans bedbound due to CFS it would be common knowledge.

This study supports the idea that veterans from Gulf War were especially prone to developing CFS, whereas Iraq war veterans show typical psychological disease triggered by stress and trauma such as depression, anxiety and PTSD.

 

[Stretched]

This study supports the idea that veterans from Gulf War were especially prone to developing CFS, whereas Iraq war veterans show typical psychological disease triggered by stress and trauma such as depression, anxiety and PTSD.

If BPS=GWS=AWS=IWS=PTSD ∴ = CFS, ≠ virus

 

[femtosecond99]

It should then also apply for Iraq war veterans, but there has been very little written about Iraq war and CFS. I can only presume it is because CFS hasn't been happening at the same rates for soldiers in the Iraq war, especially when we consider that in today's social media world it's much harder to hide this kind of phenomenon than 20 years ago during the Gulf War. If there was a big bunch of Iraq veterans bedbound due to CFS it would be common knowledge.

This study supports the idea that veterans from Gulf War were especially prone to developing CFS, whereas Iraq war veterans show typical psychological disease triggered by stress and trauma such as depression, anxiety and PTSD.

I'm pretty sure I've seen studies showing similar GWI/CMS/CFS from the Iraq war as the Gulf war, and the VA link I posted above says that 10-50% of veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan developed CMI.

 

[ukxmrv]

It seems some responders are lumping in BPS theories with the maligned Wessely papers. This PTSD theory does in fact parallel with Nancy Klimas’s and other
mainstream researchers with a common CFS premise - that the two illnesses share common symptoms. I am not supporting psych causes; “BioPsychoSocio”
is a different animal. (See explanation above)

By inference, if you subscribe to mainstream CFS etiology you also buy into the possibility of the viability of BPS as a cause since it’s the other side of the viral/immune system etiology which all our wonderful clinicians treat but can’t cure. This is simply a call to look down this rabbit hole since we’re not finding any along the viral tracks!

I don't have to buy into anything and I'm genuinely trying to understand you,.

Lots of diseases share the same symptoms or have an over lap.As an example MS and CFS. It doesn't always mean that they share similar pathways. Some people with cancer have terrible fatigue and are misdiagnosed with CFS initially as are people with Addison't disease, brain tumours, muscle disorders and in the UK a poor chap with vCJD.

Just because you believe PTSD and CFS may share some symptoms (and personally I don't see them being at all similar) then it doesn't mean that these symptoms are from the same cause.

People with POTs and OI disorders are misdiagnosed with psych diseases and told they have "panic attacks". They sound the same to the Psych lobby....

I'm missing your point probably. Is there any way you could please restate it simply?

 

[Stretched]

...Just because you believe PTSD and CFS may share some symptoms (and personally I don't see them being at all similar) then it doesn't mean that these symptoms are from the same cause.

I'm missing your point probably. Is there any way you could please restate it simply?

The above post by post are not directed for your approval nor do they represent my whole belief system re CFS.

My intention was/is to simply expand on some disparate CFS occurrences with some not-so-obvious underpinnings and try to apply some logic in bringing them together, so someone might run with it if they also see what I have put out there. Who knows, maybe a reviewer here will have an epiphany, or someone else in a position to build on a theory will do so, and we’ll have a bigger (better) cake. It’s obvious by the replies some are wrestling with the ideas, some get it and others just don’t want to give it a go. That’s the way of venturing out on a limb.

As for restating my premises, candidly I’m out of gas - brain fog (mini PTSD?). Maybe I’ll reread the thread tomorrow to fill in gaps or restate my points in summary,

 

[Seven7]

Dear Inester,
What meds does she tend to use to treat immune dysfunction?

Depending on your tests. I am not direct patient of her, she just covered for my doctor once. That I know of antiviral if you ahve reactivations. And depdning on your immune system state: modulators, if NK are low, something to raise them....
Is all depending on your labs.

 

[Diwi9]

The VA has publicly said they are moving away from stress as a cause, as many veterans don't like the idea of stress causing their symptoms. However they seem to be clutching at straws. Most of the things listed in the article you quote (noise, heat, cold, etc) are stressors rather than toxins, and we already know that stress causes these symptoms.

Right...because the federal government in all of its benevolence is just going to hand over the causation of injury to hundreds of thousands of claims (BTW - the article did list depleted uranium). I don't hold onto your belief that stress is a cause of chronic medical conditions with neurological consequences, and that hypothalamic dysfunction is not the result/consequence of neurotoxic or viral exposure. I'll give you the point that stress can exacerbate the situation for someone with these hypothalamic damage...and no more. PTSD is not the same as ME/CFS and some of the arguments in this thread are conflating the two.

 

[femtosecond99]

Right...because the federal government in all of its benevolence is just going to hand over the causation of injury to hundreds of thousands of claims (BTW - the article did list depleted uranium). I don't hold onto your belief that stress is a cause of chronic medical conditions with neurological consequences, and that hypothalamic dysfunction is not the result/consequence of neurotoxic or viral exposure. I'll give you the point that stress can exacerbate the situation for someone with these hypothalamic damage...and no more. PTSD is not the same as ME/CFS and some of the arguments in this thread are conflating the two.

It doesn't make any difference to the claims. The VA is already taking responsibility as far as I'm aware. Whether it's stress or uranium or vaccines, either way it seems to be the US government's responsibility.

Nobody can tell for certain at the moment what the exact cause is. We just know that chronic stress definitely does cause identical hypothalamic dysfunction (note that it's not actual damage), we know there is chronic stress in wartime, and there is no current evidence of viral infection or neurotoxic damage that would explain up to 50% CFS/GWI/CMI "casualty" rate in all recent wars.

 

[Stretched]

I'll give you the point that stress can exacerbate the situation for someone with these hypothalamic damage...and no more. PTSD is not the same as ME/CFS and some of the arguments in this thread are conflating the two.

Given the contents of these posts concerning GWI, AWI, IWI, how does hypothalamic damage fit in (emerge from PTSD)?

 

[Stretched]

...Stress might trigger symptoms, but it can't explain why some people get sick and others don't .

Why not? See the ‘Black Mamba” example in this thread. I would volunteer a SWAG that the situation described would
make me sick, e.g. anxiety, HPA dysregulation, et al... .

 

[Stretched]

I'm pretty sure I've seen studies showing similar GWI/CMS/CFS from the Iraq war as the Gulf war, and the VA link I posted above says that 10-50% of veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan developed CMI.

I don’t know why PTSD would not exist in all wars - unless they’re throwing mud pies (vs killing each other) =&

 

[Wayne]

Most of the things listed in the article you quote (noise, heat, cold, etc) are stressors rather than toxins, and we already know that stress causes these symptoms.

I think vaccinations play a big role, which would be applicable to both wars, though probably more so with the gulf war.​

 

[Wayne]

I don’t know why PTSD would not exist in all wars - unless they’re throwing mud pies

Used to be called "soldier's heart", "shell-shock", and a few others. It's had a different name going back millennia, PTSD is just the modern version. So, yeah, it has existed in all wars. Seems like war is not good for us.

 

[Stretched]

Used to be called "soldier's heart", "shell-shock", and a few others. It's had a different name going back millennia, PTSD is just the modern version. So, yeah, it has existed in all wars. Seems like war is not good for us.

As long as there are 2 or more of us around we’re stuck with it

 

[JES]

I'm pretty sure I've seen studies showing similar GWI/CMS/CFS from the Iraq war as the Gulf war, and the VA link I posted above says that 10-50% of veterans from both Iraq and Afghanistan developed CMI.

Then link those studies please. The study you linked earlier only talks about a diffuse "CMI" concept which links CFS together with all sorts of mental disorders, so we cannot really deduce how many of those 50% had CFS. The study I linked concluded that Gulf War veterans were more likely to experience CFS than military comparison groups, but later they conclude that there were no studies that investigated CFS in Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

Based on these studies, I wouldn't be confident to make conclusions in any directions, other than that a high percentage of soldiers experience some kind of disorders post-war. What is clear to me is that we don't have a massive lot of bedbound CFS patients (as on this forum) among veterans from Iraq, as this would be common knowledge.

 

[femtosecond99]

Then link those studies please. The study you linked earlier only talks about a diffuse "CMI" concept which links CFS together with all sorts of mental disorders, so we cannot really deduce how many of those 50% had CFS. The study I linked concluded that Gulf War veterans were more likely to experience CFS than military comparison groups, but later they conclude that there were no studies that investigated CFS in Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

Based on these studies, I wouldn't be confident to make conclusions in any directions, other than that a high percentage of soldiers experience some kind of disorders post-war. What is clear to me is that we don't have a massive lot of bedbound CFS patients (as on this forum) among veterans from Iraq, as this would be common knowledge.

We were discussing Gulf War Illness here, not CFS, but it does seem to be very similar to CFS.

 

[Stretched]

We were discussing Gulf War Illness here, not CFS, but it does seem to be very similar to CFS.

That’s why we were establishing that GWI = AWI = IWI = PTSD; then if GWI = PTSD, then PTSD = CFS/ME, which also = ISD (Immune System Dysfunction)
(with or w/o viral involvement, but not likely, from logic of flow),