What impairs vitamin B6 production/utilization?

[Bluelude1]

I've found I need a pretty high daily dose of B6 (1000mg time released B6 & 100mg P5P) to keep deficiency symptoms at bay. Even still there are times I could use a bit more particularly of P5P, but I don't go above 100mg a day.

Prior experience leads me to believe though that whenever there is an abnormally high dose of something needed, it's very likely it's due to an inefficiency somewhere.

I switched to a low oxalate diet 3-4 months ago, which should help to some degree (removing oxalates made a noticeable improvement in my zinc levels). I also got tested for Pyrrole Disorder and came back negative, but even after that, I am still at the above dose.

Any suggestions on where else I might look to get better efficiency out of my B6?

FWIW - This doctor mentions that Lysine deficiency can effect B6 function, but I can't find anywhere else that confirms that comment. http://www.beyondmthfr.com/side-high-oxalates-problems-sulfate-b6-gut-methylation/

 

[Tammy]

Just my opinion. A toxic liver is what impairs vitamin B6/utilization. A liver that is congested and stagnant and not able to perform it's duties. The liver stores vitamins and breaks them down to be utilized. Poor liver function can be from poor food choices, environmental toxins, viral load,etc.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Zinc to phosphorylate b6

 

[Bluelude1]

Zinc to phosphorylate b6

You mean zinc is needed to phosphorylate b6?

 

[aquariusgirl]

That’s my understanding.....Rich Vank pistedabout this issue & he was the biochemistry expert

You can check his old posts

 

[JES]

@Bluelude1 What test did you use to assess B6 deficiency? I had my B6 tested from blood several years ago and bizarrely it came up high, off the charts. At the time I had not supplemented with any B6 for several months. I later found out that this can happen if the person has a problem converting pyridoxine to one of the activated forms.

1000 mg is an extremely high dosage of B6, most people would advice staying under 100 mg to avoid risk of reversible neuropathy. Also if you already take P5P, I see little point in taking the regular B6, as P5P requires one conversion step less and should be more bioavailable.

But to answer your question, I would say genetic polymorphisms that prevent conversion to activated forms is the most likely reason for any working age person to have B6 deficiency. It doesn't seem common to have B6 uptake problems as people often have with B12.

 

[helen1]

There was another thread about research showing how regular pyridoxine B6 supplements will block other forms of B6 such as food form and P5P. I can’t remember if it was only in those that don’t have the enzymes to convert pyridoxine.

I wonder if thats part of what’s happening with your big dose of B6?

Maybe @Gondwanaland or @Learner1 remembers who posted this a few months ago?

@Bluelude1

 

[Learner1]

P5P is more effective than other forms, as it requires less conversion to use.

The Beyond MTHFR post is very helpful - I think he has good insights and generally trust his information.

1000mg is an enormous dose. Toxicity has been reported at over 200mg.

However, B6 is used in many places, in sphingolipid production (known to be compromised in ME/CFS), in heme production, and in methylation. So depending on your need and your genetics, you may need more than other people.

I have been consistently tested and have an extremely high need about 350mg daily of P5P is optimum for me, which is more than anyone else I've ever run into.. So, don't be scared off by guidelines for the general public. But 1000mg is 3x that - you may very well be running the risk of toxicity...switching to a more bioavailable form, lowering the dose, and figuring out where the bottleneck is is wise.

Its best to have a comprehensive nutrient test, like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval, done every so often, to see what your body is doing with nutrients.

Your problem may very well stem from missing other cofactors in the processes P5P helps, which could be other B vitamins, magnesium, potassium, molybdenum, iron, amino acids,or phospholipids.

Hard to know without a test, though.

 

[andyguitar]

It's a BIG dose. would be very unusual to have a deficiency at that dose. Something else causing the symptoms maybe?

 

[Mary]

@Bluelude1 - I agree with the others that 1000 mg. is extremely high. Was your deficiency discovered through blood work or something like Nutreval? I had Nutreval testing done which revealed a major deficiency for me, and 100 mg. of P-5-P has helped a lot.

I think in my case it's probably a combination of genetics and ME/CFS. ME/CFS causes all sorts of weird deficiency symptoms - I need more potassium, folate, b1, B12 etc. than "normal" people. And I have a sister who does not have ME/CFS but who did have a B6 deficiency - her skin had an unhealthy pallor. When she was younger, she would tan at the drop of a hat and get very dark - I would envy her (I burn and peel). But now she was an unnatural white. And then I read that low B6 can cause this. She started taking it and within a yearpor she was starting to tan again. She very well may have needed more B6, it took so long, but it did work.

Re the liver and B6 - poor liver functioning can cause malabsorption, only my liver is in good shape, thanks to a liver detox and taking betaine HCL with pepsin. My digestion is good compared to pre-detox and pre-HCL when it was pretty screwed up.

 

[Bluelude1]

There was another thread about research showing how regular pyridoxine B6 supplements will block other forms of B6 such as food form and P5P. I can’t remember if it was only in those that don’t have the enzymes to convert pyridoxine.

I wonder if thats part of what’s happening with your big dose of B6?

Maybe @Gondwanaland or @Learner1 remembers who posted this a few months ago?

Yup, I stumbled across that thread as well and it pretty much answered my question.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...reased-vitamin-b6-function.53293/#post-947006

I went ahead and stopped taking all Pyridoxine today and just stuck with the 100mg P5P.

 

[renski]

FYI there is a lot more here about lysine and B6: https://mthfrsupport.com/2016/02/im...ng-domino-effect-on-their-genetic-expression/

Good info about using P5P as well: https://rachelarthur.com.au/p5p-v-pyridoxine-supplements/

 

[Bluelude1]

P5P is more effective than other forms, as it requires less conversion to use.

The Beyond MTHFR post is very helpful - I think he has good insights and generally trust his information.

1000mg is an enormous dose. Toxicity has been reported at over 200mg.

However, B6 is used in many places, in sphingolipid production (known to be compromised in ME/CFS), in heme production, and in methylation. So depending on your need and your genetics, you may need more than other people.

I have been consistently tested and have an extremely high need about 350mg daily of P5P is optimum for me, which is more than anyone else I've ever run into.. So, don't be scared off by guidelines for the general public. But 1000mg is 3x that - you may very well be running the risk of toxicity...switching to a more bioavailable form, lowering the dose, and figuring out where the bottleneck is is wise.

Its best to have a comprehensive nutrient test, like a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval, done every so often, to see what your body is doing with nutrients.

Your problem may very well stem from missing other cofactors in the processes P5P helps, which could be other B vitamins, magnesium, potassium, molybdenum, iron, amino acids,or phospholipids.

Hard to know without a test, though.

Revisiting this, I was curious if you dreamed consistently on 350mg of P5P?

 

[Learner1]

Revisiting this, I was curious if you dreamed consistently on 350mg of P5P?

Nope. I don't dream much at all, no matter how much P5P Ive taken.

 

[Bluelude1]

Nope. I don't dream much at all, no matter how much P5P Ive taken.

Interesting & odd... It definitely has an impact on my dreaming, but it's strangely inconsistent. When it does I have extremely vivid dreams and similar response has been noted by other people I know.

 

[Outlaw]

@Bluelude1 What test did you use to assess B6 deficiency? I had my B6 tested from blood several years ago and bizarrely it came up high, off the charts. At the time I had not supplemented with any B6 for several months. I later found out that this can happen if the person has a problem converting pyridoxine to one of the activated forms.
.

Sorry to bring up an old post.

I just got tested and I have the same thing: my B6 is more than 2x the maximum range. Just like you, I read that the excess can actually hide a deficiency, since with MTHFR, non-activated B6 doesn't convert to P5P and accumulates in the blood.

Did you do anything to fix it? Would I need to supplement with P5P, or should I do a complete methylation support (methylb12, methylfolate, P5P, cofactors)?

Thanks a lot

 

[Gondwanaland]

Sorry to bring up an old post.

I just got tested and I have the same thing: my B6 is more than 2x the maximum range. Just like you, I read that the excess can actually hide a deficiency, since with MTHFR, non-activated B6 doesn't convert to P5P and accumulates in the blood.

Did you do anything to fix it? Would I need to supplement with P5P, or should I do a complete methylation support (methylb12, methylfolate, P5P, cofactors)?

Thanks a lot

I am not Outlaw, but the only thing that worked for me was supplementing with P5P. In my case I turned a 50mg pill into powder and took what I suppose was about 5mg 1x daily for 2 weeks, felt cured of every ailment and then crashed.

 

[Outlaw]

I am not Outlaw, but the only thing that worked for me was supplementing with P5P. In my case I turned a 50mg pill into powder and took what I suppose was about 5mg 1x daily for 2 weeks, felt cured of every ailment and then crashed.

Damn sorry to hear that. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly did it temporarly cure?

I think fixing my B6 levels will alleviate my tinnitus and sound sensitivity.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Damn sorry to hear that. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly did it temporarly cure?

I think fixing my B6 levels will alleviate my tinnitus and sound sensitivity.

Essentialy everything related with low thyroid such as slow/poor digestion and nutrient absorption (I felt comfortably warm after meals), poor histamine metabolism and histamine fatigue, poor sleep. But I learned that P5P supplementation can't fix everything on its own, your body must be able to produce healthy hormones or you need replacement therapy. My health is much better since I reached the right amount of thyroid replacement I need + estradiol.

 

[Outlaw]

Essentialy everything related with low thyroid such as slow/poor digestion and nutrient absorption (I felt comfortably warm after meals), poor histamine metabolism and histamine fatigue, poor sleep. But I learned that P5P supplementation can't fix everything on its own, your body must be able to produce healthy hormones or you need replacement therapy. My health is much better since I reached the right amount of thyroid replacement I need + estradiol.

That's super interesting, I have super low estradiol too.

Low estradiol and low B6 leads to low serotonin (which I have a lot of symptoms of), so hopefully fixing both these things should help a lot.

Thanks for the reply