SIBO / Dysbiosis herbal treatment

[ljimbo423]

There is NO data that proofs that bacteroides must be below 10% but i too think 50% is a bit high. The gut biome differs hugely between even healthy persons, and diet can completely change the composition of it within days.
The perfect ratio is a myth. The american gut project has tried to find the perfect composition and failed, there is none.

I agree. I don't have extensive knowledge about bacteroides. My understanding is though, that bacteroides are made up of many different kinds of bacteria.

Some are not possible pathogens and some are pathogenic if there levels are high enough.

It seems to me the relative ratios of the "good to bad" bacteroides would be more important than the overall percentage of bacteroides in the gut. Just a thought.

Jim

 

[Aubry]

my Firmicutes/Bacteroides ratio is bad according to the test.

 

[Banana94]

There is NO data that proofs that bacteroides must be below 10% but i too think 50% is a bit high. The gut biome differs hugely between even healthy persons, and diet can completely change the composition of it within days.
The perfect ratio is a myth. The american gut project has tried to find the perfect composition and failed, there is none.

@Thinktank there is also no data that proofs any treatment of ME/CFS. I know KDM is really agressive with his ABX for gut treatment. For me diet changes only a bit my gut flora. I you have a diet for decreasing bacteroidetes, I m the next one who tries it. My bacteroides are also about 45% and my GP says its way to high..
If it would be high or higher and I woulndt have gut problems, then I wouldnt take ABX for sure...
But I see my digestion is pretty bad

 

[Aubry]

 

[Aubry]

I took whole year only probiotics, prebiotics, some herbals and healthy eating. Above is the result. Much worse results than 2 years ago when I was on many antibiotics. I know it "proves nothing" but I don't know what to do anymore anyway.

 

[Banana94]

I took whole year only probiotics, prebiotics, some herbals and healthy eating. Above is the result. Much worse results than 2 years ago when I was on many antibiotics. I know it "proves nothing" but I don't know what to do anymore anyway.

What do you mean with „healthy eating“ what kind of diet do you follow? I understand that you are desperate..

 

[Banana94]

I think the ordnidazol works better for me than azithromycin and Rifaximin. But thats just symptoms. Dont know how my Stoolanalysis will look like..

 

[unicorn7]

At first I got clindamycine + rifaximine and that really helped me.

I think the microbiome test is difficult to interpret. What I understood until now:
CD14 is measured in the blood and is usually high. CD14 is a subset of your immune cells that recognizes LPS, so it means you have LPS in your blood. LPS is a piece of the outer wall of a gram-negative bacteria. Bacteroidetes are gram-negative bacteria. If you inject LPS in people, they get flu-like symptoms.

The LPS is coming from your bowel. It can only get to your blood through a hyperpermeabel bowel (leaky gut). This happens in your smaller intestine. The leaky gut is for a large part caused by dysbiosis. I think it is a vicious circle. Dysbiosis, leaky gut and your immune system all keep each other in a wrong balance. That's one problem with fecal transplants, your immune system doesn't always agree with the new microbiome and then it doesn't stick.

Dysbiosis in your small intestines is SIBO. KDM told me (my bacteroides is also high) that it means there is a big overgrowth in my small bowel (SIBO). That's why I had high LPS in my blood.

So when you look at the microbiome, it's also very important where those bacteria are. Not only how much there are.

 

[healinglyme]

I took whole year only probiotics, prebiotics, some herbals and healthy eating. Above is the result. Much worse results than 2 years ago when I was on many antibiotics. I know it "proves nothing" but I don't know what to do anymore anyway.

You’re not the only one. The results from the MSA testing from me and my friend looked also better when we took antibiotics. I don’t get it. I eat healthy, i take probiotics, supplements and no antibiotics or other meds. Maybe we need to switch op probiotics. Since a few days i’m taking Biocidin, hopefully that will do the trick.

 

[Banana94]

At first I got clindamycine + rifaximine and that really helped me.

I think the microbiome test is difficult to interpret. What I understood until now:
CD14 is measured in the blood and is usually high. CD14 is a subset of your immune cells that recognizes LPS, so it means you have LPS in your blood. LPS is a piece of the outer wall of a gram-negative bacteria. Bacteroidetes are gram-negative bacteria. If you inject LPS in people, they get flu-like symptoms.

The LPS is coming from your bowel. It can only get to your blood through a hyperpermeabel bowel (leaky gut). This happens in your smaller intestine. The leaky gut is for a large part caused by dysbiosis. I think it is a vicious circle. Dysbiosis, leaky gut and your immune system all keep each other in a wrong balance. That's one problem with fecal transplants, your immune system doesn't always agree with the new microbiome and then it doesn't stick.

Dysbiosis in your small intestines is SIBO. KDM told me (my bacteroides is also high) that it means there is a big overgrowth in my small bowel (SIBO). That's why I had high LPS in my blood.

So when you look at the microbiome, it's also very important where those bacteria are. Not only how much there are.

How can KDM know that these bacteroidetes are in the small intestine? What are typical SIBO symptoms? My symptoms of digestive problems is mostly the consistence of the stool. Dont have bloating, diarrhea , constipation. Soluble cd14 is normal, zonulin also.

 

[unicorn7]

I don’t know how he comes to conclusions with other people, but that’s my picture and I feel it fits with me. I don’t know whether it’s the same for other people.

My CD14 was high, zonulin high, inflammation high, very bloated and constipated, high bacteroides. He said it wasn’t possible to be that high and not be an overgrowth in the small intestines, but I don’t know why that is.

 

[knackers323]

@Aubry during your treatment with Kim have any of your symptoms changed, better or worse, besides now having stomach symptoms?

@ljimbo423 how long into your diet did you begin to see benefit?

Besides the period you went backwards, has your improvements been a steady progression or do they plateau?

 

[ljimbo423]

@ljimbo423 how long into your diet did you begin to see benefit?

Hey knackers323 - Diet alone gave me noticeable benefits but they weren't huge and they only lasted for a couple of weeks.

It wasn't until I was able to add in high enough doses of herbal antibiotics that I really started to see more lasting benefits. Once I did that, I started to see and feel some benefits within days.

Besides the period you went backwards, has your improvements been a steady progression or do they plateau?

It hasn't been a smooth ride. I've had a lot of ups and downs, especially early on but now (9 months in) things have leveled off a lot.

My energy levels are much higher consistently and my periods of low energy are not as low and don't last as long. My energy levels have plateaued many times in the last 9 months and I though I was stuck at some of those times.

I would make some kind of change and they have all passed! So overall my recovery has been a steady progression towards health, with some peaks and valleys along the way.

Jim

 

[Aubry]

I had remission for 3 months in 2016 during clindamycin enteric-coated. But relapsed.

 

[knackers323]

@ljimbo423 have you posted your treatment and gut bacteria tests anywhere here?

@Aubry if your gut profile has gotten worse but there are no worsening of your cfs symptoms (aside from the new gut ones brought about by the treatment) then that would indicate the gut bacteria is not the source of your cfs. ??

What else was the clindamycin doing?
Have you tried it again and had similar result?

How long were you on the clindamycin before you began to feel better?

 

[Aubry]

@knackers323 My gut profile is very similar to how I feel (symptom wise). I have a diary where I wright most of the symptoms and then I compare with stool reports in the past and present. Currently for me there is one line I particularly notice: if my bacteroidetes are too high I feel most bad in general. Same for too high streptococcus.

 

[ljimbo423]

@ljimbo423 have you posted your treatment and gut bacteria tests anywhere here?

I haven't posted my test. It was a CDSA and showed low E. coli and bifido. Also a pathogenic level of the gram negative bacteria Pseudomonas Aeruginosa-a highly antibiotic resistant pathogen! NOT GOOD.

The dysbiosis index they used went from 0, meaning a perfect microbiome to 20- being the worst they could measure. Mine was an 18- almost as bad as they could measure!

I will get back to you on what I have done and am doing to treat my gut ASAP.

Jim

 

[knackers323]

@Aubry very interesting. what did your test look like during your remission stage?

Bacteroidetes are apparently the most common bacteria found in the human gut so strange to see you feel better without it. What are you supposed to have I wonder

I don’t think your test looks all that bad.

I don’t think they really know what is good or bad yet and it looks like it good/bad/normal might be different for everyone

One dr I showed mine to said it didn’t look that bad and that his was worse and he felt fine.

I wonder if cfs ers are just more susceptible to how the gut bacteria make us feel but isn’t the root cause. Hard to tell.

Have you ever had a cd14 or LPS test done?

@ljimbo423 says his ecoli was low as is commonly found in cfs but mine is high. Did you have any staphylococcus @ljimbo423 ?

 

[Aubry]

@knackers323 I don't know either what I have :/ Only that antibiotics (supposed for the gut) and certain SIBO herbals such as oregano essential oil temporary made me better in the past.

 

[unicorn7]

This disease has so much ups and downs. I never now if something better of worse is really from the medication I'm receiving.

Your story sounds a bit like mine. I had clindamycine at first and got really a lot better on that. Microbiome was not very different, but the CD14 was ok after the clindamycine. Half a year later I had a relapse, CD14 was high again. Microbiome was not very different. I now had some other ABX. After that my CD14 was a lot lower, all the other values were also lower, but my microbiome is a lot worse?? It took me a long time to get there again, but suddenly I'm a lot better now So I think your microbiome should get normal in the end, but I feel that my symptoms are very much related to how high CD14, inflammation etc is, but not necessarily to the state of my microbiome.

For me, I have the feeling we're trying to get all the values back to normal and it's kind of a juggling act to get them all normal, but also try to have no side-effect that make it worse. I think those side-effects are mostly on your microbiome. I would be really curious what would happen if I tried to treat all the inflammation, CD14 etc with ABX and then do a fecal transplant right after.