Emergency, Please Help

[Gondwanaland]

I suppose - not sure - it could have depleted B2 & B3

 

[joejack102]

Here’s the thing: nothing that has been proposed so far can explain why as early as 13 years old I was 1,000x’s sensitive to medicines/herbs, why CDP Choline reversed that at age 23, and how to reverse it. I mean the idea that a basic vitamin found in hundreds of foods hat I already eat would reverse this is not realistic. Can somebody help me find what exactly CDP Choline does and how to possibly reverse it.

 

[Gondwanaland]

the idea that a basic vitamin found in hundreds of foods hat I already eat would reverse this is not realistic.

You should know the difference between dietary and therapeutic doses.

ETA you must find a functional practitioner in your area who is experienced in prescribing supplemental vitamins.

 

[joejack102]

Well, to all those who have participated in this discussion so far, thank you. I still have not found any relief after all I have tried, and I have extensively tried several of the things that were mentioned on this threat so far to not avail. I cannot stress how serious of a problem this is and how bad I have felt for several months now.
I've attached a chart which might make more sense:

(I'm not 100% sure which FORM of Choline caused this issue since I used Choline Bitartrate and CDP Choline around the same time.)

I haven't been able to work in almost 4 months, and I'm about to lose my job and insurance if I cannot find relief.

 

[Tunguska]

@joejack102 Sorry I'm under enough pressure/struggling that I can't follow forums anymore. To have problems from uridine you'd have to get high enough bloods levels to affect the brain in a negative manner, such that [less likely when not taken as sublingual UMP]. With CDP-choline you have to take a significant oral dose at once: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10974208

It affects everything from acetylcholine, dopamine and GABA receptors and densities. It has a role in metabolism through hypothalamus only recognized since last year: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/03/170317131617.htm (http://science.sciencemag.org/content/355/6330/eaaf5375) I believe I even got negative effects from sublingual UMP myself 3 years ago, but I still don't know how you'd go about fixing it. If I did I would tell you.

[Sorry about the situation with employment, I know how that goes far too well]

 

[tooth]

@Gondwanaland why would it be prudent to avoid Magnesium Glycinate?

 

[joejack102]

Can anyone let me know if this article may hold the key for what CDP Choline or Choline Bitartrate did to me?
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...nic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005

 

[pattismith]

Can anyone let me know if this article may hold the key for what CDP Choline or Choline Bitartrate did to me?
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...nic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005

yes it may be!

increased choline in the brain seems to be detrimental and induced by inflammation. Microglial activation could be one of the triggering factor according to this article, so you may try to inhibit microglial.
Omega 3 are advised in the article you quoted.

You will find some other helpful supplements here:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-treatment-using-microglial-inhibitors.34164/

 

[pattismith]

@joejack102 ,

I found this very recent study that confirms that elevated choline in brain is a consequence of brain inflammation and glial cell turn over;
In this case, the people involved were patient with a first psychosis episode, and they had significant increased choline in the brain. They say some antipsychotic drugs have micoglial inhibition properties.

https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article-abstract/43/suppl_1/S143/3075896

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Gondwanaland why would it be prudent to avoid Magnesium Glycinate?

I was probably mistaken. Choline might have actually created an increased need for both magnesium and glycine.

 

[joejack102]

It may seem difficult to explain but:

When I was a teenager and was 100x’s sensitive to herbs and meds, countless experts told me that I should get psychological therapy such as for stress and that other than that there was nothing I could do. THEY WERE 100% WRONG! I found out after over 10 years that it can be controlled/modified on my own. I was already in “direction the body would not normally go” from the beginning and it was stuck like that until I discovered how to modulate it myself. If I hadn’t taken anything, I would still be 100x’s sensitive to meds to this day. But I’m not.

I spent 5 years after I discovered Ashwagandha & Chamomile having complete 100% control because Ashwagandha would decrease my sensitivity and Chamomile would increase them (for the 24 hours it was in my system).

By using more and more Choline supplements gradually, my body went from 100, 80, 50, 20, 0, -20, -50, -80, -100. It wasn’t an On/Off switch. There was a gradual shift. If I can give analogy, most people have an automatic thermostat for this, but mine is manual. I managed to discover the “down button” (CDP Choline) and I was free to lower the thermostat, however I can’t find the up button, so for now all I can do it press the down button so to speak, until I discover the other “button.”

I can promise with 100% certainty there is a reverse feedback mechanism in the body for this, because otherwise my body wouldn’t have spent an entire decade being abnormally sensitive, nor would the shift have been so gradual.

Being that I’m so convinced that CDP Choline was a permanent and gradual “down button” on the thermostat so to speak, where would I find help with locating the “up button?” Is this something you can help with? There are 1,000’s of studies on CDP Choline, Chamomile, and Ashwagandha that would help give clues as to why the affected me the way that they did. I desperately need help, and my determination is an effort to get my life back. My symptoms are so bad that I have no life until this issue is resolved.

Thanks for your responses.

 

[robinhood12345]

The oral LD50 of choline for man is estimated to be 200-400g per some websites. Even taking 200g assuming someone didn't die there would still be no negative long term side effects. CDP choline is less than 40% choline, and choline bitartrate is 40%. CDP choline breaks down into plain choline, and other components in the GI tract so it is just an expensive way to get plain choline. Same with that other fancy form of choline. Choline chloride is 80% but that is not commonly sold. Whatever caused your problems it could not of been an essential nutrient. So how much choline did you take, and for how long?

Bakers or brewers yeast is one of the best food sources most of the b vitamins so could try that. And a eat a variety of fresh fruit each day.

 

[joejack102]

The oral LD50 of choline for man is estimated to be 200-400g per some websites. Even taking 200g assuming someone didn't die there would still be no negative long term side effects. CDP choline is less than 40% choline, and choline bitartrate is 40%. CDP choline breaks down into plain choline, and other components in the GI tract so it is just an expensive way to get plain choline. Same with that other fancy form of choline. Choline chloride is 80% but that is not commonly sold. Whatever caused your problems it could not of been an essential nutrient. So how much choline did you take, and for how long?

Bakers or brewers yeast is one of the best food sources most of the b vitamins so could try that. And a eat a variety of fresh fruit each day.

You don’t understand. I already had an emergency problem before. Medications and herbs would have a strength of 1,000x’s on me. This is not normal. Progressively this decreased due to my Choline usage which directly and progressively made me less& less sensitive until now where it’s the opposite. And yes, the root problem is the same in that my parasympathetic nervous system isn’t working right and isn’t regulating this signaling. However, I need to get more sensitive again. If nobody believes me or truly listens to what I’m saying, I will never be able to get help.

 

[robinhood12345]

In some early studies on choline on atherosclerosis they gave up to 32g a day but they didn't say what form it was (chloride bitatrate etc). How much did you take?

Can do a liver detox test to see what is happening with the liver detox pathways. Or consume lots of acetaminophen to deplete glutathione which would make you more sensitive to drugs. Stupid idea of course but would achieve the goals.

 

[robinhood12345]

DMAE appears dangerous is multiple studies; one being "Inhibitors of Choline Uptake and Metabolism Cause Developmental Abnormalities in Neurulating Mouse Embryos" so if it was DMAE, and not actual choline that you took that would explain why you got sick.

 

[joejack102]

@robinhood12345 I think it caused a biochemical imbalance or vitamin imbalance, because since POTS patents have an blocked or inhibited parasympathetic nervous system, something isn't balancing like it normally would.

 

[robinhood12345]

There are a lot of studies showing choline cures POTS google choline POTS NCBI. Something in your story does not add up.

 

[Sushi]

There are a lot of studies showing choline cures POTS

I have a friend with POTS who has a SNP in a choline receptor and for this person, choline (at the right dose) does indeed help her POTS. But I doubt if that is generally the case--at least it is not true for me I'm afraid.

 

[robinhood12345]

What is the SNP of the choline receptor please so I can look it up? because I think I have a choline transporter deficiency slc5a7 or there might be another choline transporter but I am a bit confused by the OMIM naming of it.

Well per the studies choline cures POTS. Just try 20g a day of choline if you have POTS.

And the reason methylation problems are common is because 90% of the USA population is deficient in choline, and choline converts into all those methylation things later on. Choline may stop fat accumulating in the arteries also so heart attack- which is the number one disease cause of death in the world- and is caused by atherosclerosis may be choline deficiency.

 

[Wayne]

And yes, the root problem is the same in that my parasympathetic nervous system isn’t working right and isn’t regulating this signaling.

Hi @joejack102,

I've not spent much time on the forum the past few months because of my own difficult recent-onset tinnitus. But I've continued to have a great deal of interest in your situation, as well as feeling a great deal of empathy for what you're going through. I've not really felt "qualified" to say much about choline or the methylation cycle, as I really don't understand either all that well.

However, I do feel I have a fairly good understanding of the vagus nerve, which I feel is dysfunctional in most people with CFS, and according to my understanding, orchestrates the whole parasympathic system. I know my own VN has been dysregulated since I had a vehicle accident at age 15 (now 66), when I suffered a serious head injury and whiplash. I believe the whiplash "crimped" my cranial nerves, with the crimped vagus nerve causing most of my CFS symptoms.

I did an atlas "repositioning" technique (Atlas Profilax) about 10 years ago which I believe relieved a lot of the pressure on my vagus nerve and improved a lot of my symptoms. One symptom that didn't resolve however was slow motility, which eventually led to gastroparesis. To address this as best I could, a number of years ago I developed a routine of doing daily coffee enemas, which I did primarily for regularity and detoxification. I was always amazed--and still am--how deeply they affect my overall sense of inner harmony (for the better!).

For the longest time, I thought this inner harmony I was able to reclaim had mostly to do with detoxification. But a couple years ago, I changed my thinking on that, and now believe it resulted from stimulating my vagus nerve from doing the coffee enemas. THIS LINK will take you to a very good 10-min. video, which gives a succinct description of the vagus nerve and its functions. It also gives three techniques that he feels work best for stimulating the vagus nerve to improve it's functioning (and attendant parasympathetic response). His #1 technique is the coffee enema.

I don't post too much about my health orientations, as most people are not particularly inclined toward the way I think. I made a post recently on a tinnitus forum, which, if you're interested in reading would shed a little more light on how I approach my own very difficult health issues. THIS LINK will take you to it, if you'd like to peruse it. It touches on some energetic techniques I'm currently using, and I'd be happy to discuss anything about my approach to healing if you have any questions.

I sincerely wish you the very best as you continue to search for something (anything) that might help improve your situation. It sounds extraordinarily difficult, and as I said earlier, I greatly empathize with what you're going through.

All the Best, Wayne

@Cort, I wonder if you might have any insights on what might be going on with JoeJack's experiences with choline...

@jeff_w​