Low Dose Naltrexone Experimentation

[frozenborderline]

I want to start this thread by saying that I know at the outset that it was stupid of me to ramp up the dosage that fast and continue to dose even when it was totally messing up my sleep schedule. So if you are planning on calling me a dumbass, I already admitted it. That said, I believe this can be of use/interesting as anecdotal evidence about naltrexone. So I will post the five days worth of updates/etc. that I already posted on another forum.

 

[frozenborderline]

"
I just took my first dose of 1.5 mg naltrexone capsules. Was nervous about it for awhile and was trying to treat myself with supplements and rest and yoga. I'm sort of a pharmacology nerd and I know that low dose naltrexone is benign as far as Meds go but I am still worried I'll experience adverse effects, given how hypersensitive I've become to medications since I got sick. Ray peat told me that a few doses of it could have a long term /permanent effect, so I may do it for a little while if I can tolerate it. Wondering if it will cause insomnia. Does anyone have good or bad experiences with this med? I feel kind of confused since I took it but that could be placebo

Update: I'm going to keep a med journal and post it here after a few days or weeks if I remember to and have energy. Feel free to remind me if you are interested. I already feel different and I'm pretty sure this isn't placebo. I don't have more physical energy per se but I have almost zero brain fog. Pretty nauseous though.

Second Update: This is definitely not placebo, noticing some negative effects. Feel kind of jittery. It may be that the naltrexone is just giving me more energy and I need to lower my caffeine intake, or find the right balance. The jitteriness and nausea may go away, and the mental energy/clarity is definitely real, so I'm going to stick with the experiment"

 

[frozenborderline]

"Second day after I took LDN (at night). The first day I had bursts of energy/lucidity (it was more mental energy and clarity than physical energy) that were pretty astounding, honestly was even a little jittery. I got some mild jitters this morning but am honestly mostly just dead tired. I feel worse than average. I'm hoping that this doesn't keep up. I still think I'll stick with this for a couple or few more days because I've heard that the side effects can wear off."

 

[frozenborderline]

20 min. later I had a pretty small amount (way less than a cup) of coffee to try and get over a hump and it made me too tense. Got chest tightness. It seems like the naltrexone makes me more prone to chest tightness or tension while not actually giving me much energy..

 

[frozenborderline]

(stepping in to say that these experiences so far were from 1.5 mg of naltrexone)

 

[frozenborderline]

Day 4
I feel fucking terrible.
This feels like it's gotta be beyond placebo. I almost feel like I got hit with a flu or something. This morning, after sleeping for like 10 hours and drinking a shitload of coffee, I was still dizzy and sleepy and feel like I almost crashed b/c of the tiredness and dizziness.
I thought that my evening dose of naltrexone might pick up my energy, so I took it a couple hours ago. I have been shivering, don't have any energy or appetite, and haven't been able to do really anything at all tonight, despite waking up only like 8 hours ago after a lot of sleep. This may sound just like normal cfs symptoms, but this is a definite worsening of my symptoms. Normally i don't have a lot of physical energy but can still do activities, like read, or clean a little bit.
The way I feel makes me think of how opioid withdrawal is described, except I haven't taken any opioids and there's no reason for the naltrexone to put me into precipitated withdrawals.
I may stop this experiment soon... I feel like this is making me almost bedridden.. I would restart it later, once I can just bedrest and am not doing anything else.
I'm tempted to push the dose higher--just for "science"... or something. since it isn't dangerous and people get prescribed doses way higher than this.

I'm also wondering if (and hoping that) this is doing something beneficial and there's just some kind of "wall" to get over? I think this is unfortunately just magical thinking--like the "herxheimer reaction" which is real but lyme patients tend to attribute any bad feeling to--making basically any bad feeling into a sign that things are going well? I can't see the basis for it to be a good sign that naltrexone makes me feel worse.. surely if it was lowering inflammation I'd feel better

 

[frozenborderline]

Day 4
I feel fucking terrible.
This feels like it's gotta be beyond placebo. I almost feel like I got hit with a flu or something. This morning, after sleeping for like 10 hours and drinking a shitload of coffee, I was still dizzy and sleepy and feel like I almost crashed b/c of the tiredness and dizziness.
I thought that my evening dose of naltrexone might pick up my energy, so I took it a couple hours ago. I have been shivering, don't have any energy or appetite, and haven't been able to do really anything at all tonight, despite waking up only like 8 hours ago after a lot of sleep. This may sound just like normal cfs symptoms, but this is a definite worsening of my symptoms. Normally i don't have a lot of physical energy but can still do activities, like read, or clean a little bit.
The way I feel makes me think of how opioid withdrawal is described, except I haven't taken any opioids and there's no reason for the naltrexone to put me into precipitated withdrawals.
I may stop this experiment soon... I feel like this is making me almost bedridden.. I would restart it later, once I can just bedrest and am not doing anything else.
I'm tempted to push the dose higher--just for "science"... or something. since it isn't dangerous and people get prescribed doses way higher than this.

I'm also wondering if (and hoping that) this is doing something beneficial and there's just some kind of "wall" to get over? I think this is unfortunately just magical thinking--like the "herxheimer reaction" which is real but lyme patients tend to attribute any bad feeling to--making basically any bad feeling into a sign that things are going well? I can't see the basis for it to be a good sign that naltrexone makes me feel worse.. surely if it was lowering inflammation I'd feel better

update: fuck it fam (10:34 pm) i'm taking another dose of naltrexone (3mg total tonight)

 

[frozenborderline]

day 5:
At the outset, before you even say it, I know it was stupid/irresponsible to up doses this fast, especially after I learned that it had these effects. However, in my experimenting, I learned some stuff about this medicine that is really interesting, and led me to some educated guessing about some of its pharmacological effects.

I took my first dose of 1.5 mg naltrexone around 7 last night. I probably should have stuck with this dose. It seemed like it made my muscles a little tight or sore, overall it gave me some energy, though. I had been sleepy before, probably BECAUSE the naltrexone kept me up (until 5) the night before (I know, jfc i never learn). I was playing a gig and this got me through it. I felt moderately alert, not nodding out, pretty good/ok.

After the gig, around 11 pm I think, I took a second pill, so now I'm on a total of 3 mg naltrexone. I don't know why I did this, as the night before it kept me up until 5. Well, this night it kept me up until 6 AM...

I had an initial period of some low-key dizziness and discomfort... kind of an intense feeling in my head--not quite a headache, but just like tenseness, moderate discomfort. This makes sense, as naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, I assume I was just experiencing the equivalent of really mild/low-grade opioid withdrawal. I got over this, and I think around 2AM I started to feel better. Then I was reading and watching videos, feeling pretty stimulated and good, and finally tried to go to bed around 4:30. While I was lying in bed, I realized I was wide awake, took some gabapentin, melatonin, and skullcap to try and pass out.
Didn't really work, and I started to notice how intensely stimulating the naltrexone was. I was still fully awake for another hour and a half, and during that time I was kind of in ecstasy, although I was also annoyed that I felt this high because I wanted to sleep really badly and knew I would pay for it the next day. Once the "high" of the naltrexone dose hit, it was really opioid like but also a little stimulating. I would compare it to a yellow vein strain of kratom... maybe oxycodone. I'm thinking that it is almost definitely true that the naltrexone at the right dose causes a paradoxical effect where it stimulates overproduction of endorphins by the body. It felt like some dopamine must be involved, because it wasn't just a sleepy morphine-like high, it was stimulating (I was kind of mildly grinding my jaw and wanting to read for hours/do stuff).
So, obviously this fucked my sleep up and I feel sorta terrible today. I also ideally wouldn't want to have to take gabapentin for sleep. I need to figure out if taking it earlier in the day and at lower doses will work for me. What I did figure out, though, is that this stuff is far beyond placebo, has some powerful effects, and I think can help with energy at the right dose. I don't know if its a cure so much as helping with symptoms.

 

[frozenborderline]

day 5:
At the outset, before you even say it, I know it was stupid/irresponsible to up doses this fast, especially after I learned that it had these effects. However, in my experimenting, I learned some stuff about this medicine that is really interesting, and led me to some educated guessing about some of its pharmacological effects.

I took my first dose of 1.5 mg naltrexone around 7 last night. I probably should have stuck with this dose. It seemed like it made my muscles a little tight or sore, overall it gave me some energy, though. I had been sleepy before, probably BECAUSE the naltrexone kept me up (until 5) the night before (I know, jfc i never learn). I was playing a gig and this got me through it. I felt moderately alert, not nodding out, pretty good/ok.

After the gig, around 11 pm I think, I took a second pill, so now I'm on a total of 3 mg naltrexone. I don't know why I did this, as the night before it kept me up until 5. Well, this night it kept me up until 6 AM...

I had an initial period of some low-key dizziness and discomfort... kind of an intense feeling in my head--not quite a headache, but just like tenseness, moderate discomfort. This makes sense, as naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, I assume I was just experiencing the equivalent of really mild/low-grade opioid withdrawal. I got over this, and I think around 2AM I started to feel better. Then I was reading and watching videos, feeling pretty stimulated and good, and finally tried to go to bed around 4:30. While I was lying in bed, I realized I was wide awake, took some gabapentin, melatonin, and skullcap to try and pass out.
Didn't really work, and I started to notice how intensely stimulating the naltrexone was. I was still fully awake for another hour and a half, and during that time I was kind of in ecstasy, although I was also annoyed that I felt this high because I wanted to sleep really badly and knew I would pay for it the next day. Once the "high" of the naltrexone dose hit, it was really opioid like but also a little stimulating. I would compare it to a yellow vein strain of kratom... maybe oxycodone. I'm thinking that it is almost definitely true that the naltrexone at the right dose causes a paradoxical effect where it stimulates overproduction of endorphins by the body. It felt like some dopamine must be involved, because it wasn't just a sleepy morphine-like high, it was stimulating (I was kind of mildly grinding my jaw and wanting to read for hours/do stuff).
So, obviously this fucked my sleep up and I feel sorta terrible today. I also ideally wouldn't want to have to take gabapentin for sleep. I need to figure out if taking it earlier in the day and at lower doses will work for me. What I did figure out, though, is that this stuff is far beyond placebo, has some powerful effects, and I think can help with energy at the right dose. I don't know if its a cure so much as helping with symptoms.

I want to add that I had this EXACT conundrum when taking kratom in late afternoon/evening to help with energy/symptoms.
I would feel great but then have to take a bunch of pills to knock myself out even very late, and get unrefreshing sleep on a fucked up schedule.

So the above post isn't exactly an endorsement of LDN. I may stop it totally, or just take a smaller dose at a much earlier time today. But now I know that it does something beyond placebo, and can help with energy. I will experiment with dosing times in the future in a much more judicious way, and maybe I will have found something that stimulates me better than a stimulant can!

 

[frozenborderline]

So the main things I discovered is that it can be stimulating, but at the doses where it's stimulating it seems to fuck up my sleep schedule so, so, so much. UGH. I am still so fucking sleep deprived, I tried it an extra night after I wrote this. I know, I shouldn't ask for sympathy since I did something dumb. BUt i'm used to trying to experiment with things to see every angle. I tried dosing 3 mg but way earlier in the day, still couldn't sleep. I'm convinced that it's way too strong to even do that.

 

[frozenborderline]

Oh, so, another update. Today I tried only taking 1.5 mg, and took it in the morning. it is basically 1am now and i am hella tense and can't sleep. but on the other hand I got a bunch of shit done writing wise, felt energy and lucidity that i normally don't. It feels a little like speed without the speediness... I need to figure out a dose that will give me the benefits but allow me to sleep well--since i need sleep so bad

 

[frozenborderline]

and now I have heart palpitations--fucking great. and i still can't sleep. i've had like 10--15, maybe even 20 heart palpitations in the past hour

 

[PatJ]

I can't see the basis for it to be a good sign that naltrexone makes me feel worse.

It's an immune modulator. Most people feel worse when they first start, or when they increase the dose. When your immune system really ramps up to fight off an infection you have less energy than normal, flu-ish symptoms etc.

The basic routine is: start, feel worse, wait until you start feeling better (usually takes two weeks max), then bump up the dose again until you reach 4.5mg/day or you don't feel any better after two weeks.

Some people (like me) find that 4.5 is too much. I usually don't take more than 2.5mg/day.

I had been sleepy before, probably BECAUSE the naltrexone kept me up (until 5) the night before

LDN is really good at messing with sleep. I started with 0.125mg/day and slowly titrated to 2.5mg/day over the course of a month. My sleep was disturbed for the entire time. But, the times that I was able to sleep were better than they were without the LDN, so it was worth continuing. Once I hit a stable dose my sleep improved.

Once the "high" of the naltrexone dose hit, it was really opioid like but also a little stimulating

That's the endorphin rush. LDN blocks opioid receptors for awhile so the body produces more endorphans than usual. Once the LDN wears off you can get some nice feelings. This only happened for me a few times so there must be some rapid body adaptation to the extra endorphins.

So the main things I discovered is that it can be stimulating, but at the doses where it's stimulating it seems to fuck up my sleep schedule so, so, so much.

It might disturb your sleep no matter what dose you take. Even 0.125mg/day disturbed my sleep from the first dose. Most people find that once they stay at a dose for at least two weeks then the side effects fade away.

When I reached 4mg/dy I started getting anxiety so I worked my back to 2.5md/day which is my sweet spot for benefits without drawbacks.

If you reduce the dose you might be able to reduce the stimulating effect. It might also be a filler that is causing the stimulation. I read about one person who thought LDN was causing anxiety but then she had some compounded with a different filler and the anxiety disappeared. LDN is water soluble so some people dissolve it in water, then pour it through a moist coffee filter to get rid of the fillers.

Dudley's LDN site has lots of info you may find interesting, including lists of common side effects.

 

[frozenborderline]

It's an immune modulator. Most people feel worse when they first start, or when they increase the dose. When your immune system really ramps up to fight off an infection you have less energy than normal, flu-ish symptoms etc.

The basic routine is: start, feel worse, wait until you start feeling better (usually takes two weeks max), then bump up the dose again until you reach 4.5mg/day or you don't feel any better after two weeks.

Some people (like me) find that 4.5 is too much. I usually don't take more than 2.5mg/day.



LDN is really good at messing with sleep. I started with 0.125mg/day and slowly titrated to 2.5mg/day over the course of a month. My sleep was disturbed for the entire time. But, the times that I was able to sleep were better than they were without the LDN, so it was worth continuing. Once I hit a stable dose my sleep improved.



That's the endorphin rush. LDN blocks opioid receptors for awhile so the body produces more endorphans than usual. Once the LDN wears off you can get some nice feelings. This only happened for me a few times so there must be some rapid body adaptation to the extra endorphins.



It might disturb your sleep no matter what dose you take. Even 0.125mg/day disturbed my sleep from the first dose. Most people find that once they stay at a dose for at least two weeks then the side effects fade away.

When I reached 4mg/dy I started getting anxiety so I worked my back to 2.5md/day which is my sweet spot for benefits without drawbacks.

If you reduce the dose you might be able to reduce the stimulating effect. It might also be a filler that is causing the stimulation. I read about one person who thought LDN was causing anxiety but then she had some compounded with a different filler and the anxiety disappeared. LDN is water soluble so some people dissolve it in water, then pour it through a moist coffee filter to get rid of the fillers.

Dudley's LDN site has lots of info you may find interesting, including lists of common side effects.

See, it wasn't disturbing my sleep schedule in a manageable way. It wasn't like, a little stimmed out, staying up to 3. I maxed out my gabapentin dose and even took a little more, and couldn't get to sleep until 4... I can't be doing this. It's an interesting med. I want to try dosing it at doses lower than i'm prescribed, which will have to involve some volumetric dosing. It seems to help with energy, but I got heart palps and couldn't do many pushups--seems like it helps with mental energy but not so much physical--like speed or something.

 

[frozenborderline]

I also feel tired in a weird way (like air hunger, etc.) today that makes me feel like I may have done cardiac damage by taking the naltrexone

 

[PatJ]

It may reduce physical energy in the short term but help in the long term. You're experiencing the initial effects but it can take a few weeks after reaching a stable dose to appreciate the positive effects and make it through the side effects. And some side effects might not appear until you reach a certain dose, or until you've taken it for a couple of weeks.

 

[PatJ]

that makes me feel like I may have done cardiac damage by taking the naltrexone

I used to get heart palpitations very often before taking LDN, but it rarely happens at all now that I've been taking LDN for roughly two years. Other supplements might be helping as well.

A doctor, and ECG, should be able to help assess any cardiac problems unless they're related to the weird effects that CFS/ME can have on a body.

 

[frozenborderline]

i've had like a hundred ekgs. some people have told me that the heart problems caused by ME won't show up on an ekg. In this instance i'm fine but i've just been reading a buncha stuff about how ME causes heart problems at the mitochondrial level

 

[frozenborderline]

It may reduce physical energy in the short term but help in the long term. You're experiencing the initial effects but it can take a few weeks after reaching a stable dose to appreciate the positive effects and make it through the side effects. And some side effects might not appear until you reach a certain dose, or until you've taken it for a couple of weeks.

it's been increasing energy in the short term, at the cost of sleep. but it seems like mainly mental energy... not like exercising/physical energy, which is what i want--i want to be able to run again, or lift

 

[frozenborderline]

i may have to lower dose to like .5 mg, which would require volumetric dosing