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Has vitamin K-2 (mk-4 or mk7) helped you ?

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
when I started taking zinc and thiamine), I have almost insatiable cravings for meat
@SherDa Were you able to figure out why the cravings?
I experienced a collapse and massive starvation hunger cravings for red meat and liver after upping zinc and thiamine. I took about a month of massive eating liver and meat to return to normal.
 

amaru7

Senior Member
Messages
252
Can someone summerize the verdict of the 15 pages for my mind that is too fatigued to read all of it? I started taking MK-7 atm and am interested to know what experience you guys had with it.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
I too felt joint "instability" or wobbliness in the knees and hips, when I was K2 (mega) dosing.
@Mikemcd

What was the K2 (mega) dosing?

After reading all the good info on K2 I realized that my translucent teeth were probably a good indicator that I might be deficient in K2. (Besides the fact that approximately 75% of the population is indicated as having insufficient consumption...) Consumption of K2 through food didn't appear to offer much remedy by absorption studies.

So, I accidentally started my supplement test of K2 (MK-4 and MK-7) with a bang. In a sleepy bedtime state I grabbed the new bottle of K2 and swallowed two caps before realizing that it was K2 and not something else. :bang-head: :cautious: Well that's twice the daily dosage of something I'd never tried before. :wide-eyed:

I slept well that night and became more optimistic. :vomit: By evening (18 hours later) I could feel all kinds of things going on throughout my body. It felt like little maintenance crews were working double time all over with pains particularly in the extremities, bones, joints, connective tissue and concentrated little pinpricks throughout the flesh. I could almost feel them rushing through my veins on their urgent mission. o_O
When I stood up I felt quite wobbly, as though my cartilage and bones had gone a bit soft with the ongoing reconstruction. I needed a walker to lean on to shuffle anywhere and was quite convinced that I was in danger of doing serious damage to myself if I attempted much more than staying in bed. :thumbdown:

The pulsing and stabbing pains continued throughout most of that night keeping sleep at bay. :nervous: Sometimes when I moved a limb the pains would cease, but resumed when my limb returned to a resting position. I got quite an insight as to what my body decided needed fixing: a lot! I did not take another K2 pill that evening, hoping things would settle down a bit.... Best wait at least a day before taking another K2 cap. :whistle:

Wow....the body really reacts fast to this stuff. :sluggish:

Thoughts everyone?
 
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Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@realturbo At this point I could not recommend this product for in truth I do not know if it is ultimately helping or hurting me. However I have noticed extreme startup reactions that appear to be similar to those encountered by @Mikemcd who at first went to the ER in terror, but who is now singing K2 praises for his mended health. Hope I end up like him... :rolleyes:
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@amaru7 You might be interested in the "verdict" reached in this article:
https://blog.bulletproof.com/build-a-stronger-brain-with-vitamin-k/

Emerging research shows the synergistic effects of all four fat-soluble vitamins: A, D, E, and K. Problems can occur when you don’t get one or more in sufficient amounts.

Supplementing with therapeutic doses of vitamin D demands supportive levels of vitamins A, E, and K or you risk deficiencies in one or more of these fat-soluble vitamins. [18]

One example is a study in which researchers gave rats high amounts of vitamin A. Serum levels of vitamins E and D immediately dropped. Even higher vitamin A doses lowered serum levels of vitamin K, to the point where some rats experienced hemorrhaging. [19]

So stack A, D, E, and K, or get them all from your diet. Grass-fed organ meats like liver and kidney are probably the simplest option for getting A, D, E, and K. Don’t despair – you can make organ meats quite tasty.

Otherwise, read up on K supplementation below, and check out this guide to supplementing A, D, and E. ...
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
"Vitamin K2 is a mitochondrial electron carrier molecule required to maintain high levels of mitochondrial activity and neurotransmitter release."

... Dr. Patrik Verstreken was awarded the 2014 International Brain Research Organization’s Kemali Prize for his research, which included investigating the effect of one genetic defect leading to Parkinson’s and found a major role for vitamin K2.

Dr. Verstreken specializes in mechanisms underlying presynaptic transmitter release, and its relevance to neurodegenerative diseases including Parkinson’s disease. The mitochondria in cells produce the energy needed by cells to function. Dr. Verstreken has identified vitamin K2 as a mitochondrial electron carrier molecule that is required to maintain high levels of mitochondrial activity and neurotransmitter release.

These findings are important for understanding how nerve synapses function and have potential relevance to devising therapies for Parkinson’s disease and related disorders.

His discovery might result in a future treatment option for Parkinson’s patients that involves taking vitamin K2. As I mentioned, the mitochondria in the cell supply the energy needed for cells to function. This activity is disrupted in Parkinson’s patients, resulting in lower energy production, which causes brain cells to die and loss of neural communication. Over time, affected individuals experience lack of movement (akinesia), tremors and muscle stiffness. Parkinson’s patients have several genetic defects, including PINK1 and Parkin mutations that lead to reduced mitochondrial activity. Both the PINK1 and Parkin genes are involved in vitamin K2 metabolism.

In one of his studies, Dr. Verstreken and his colleagues gave vitamin K2 to fruit flies with a genetic defect in PINK1 or Parkin, and mitochondrial energy production and electron transport were restored. Vitamin K2 plays a role in the energy production of defective mitochondria. Because defective mitochondria are also found in Parkinson’s patients with a PINK1 or Parkin mutation, vitamin K2 potentially offers hope for a new treatment for Parkinson’s.
from: https://wholefoodsmagazine.com/colu...tamin-k-health-part-3-brain-and-nerve-functi/
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
My wild reactions to the accidental double dose of K2 did settle down considerably after the second day. Pains greatly diminished, wobbliness steadied....the fresh cement seemed to be gelling.

3rd day of the K2 (MK-4 plus MK-7) experiment. I dared to take another K2 capsule at the evening meal and noticed effects within an hour...

This time the tendons/ligaments in my extremities became sore. Upon standing I found myself again wobbly with soft joints. Various stabbing pains hit at odd parts of the body seemingly at random like shrapnel. Two hours later I was comfortably tired and sleepy. I managed to sleep a good 12 hours. In the morning I was less shaky and more stable. Still, I will use a walker to move about today to prevent injury to my body under construction. My mind is clearer. At least it seems to be. Should always test out that perception. :lol:
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
For those folks who did not notice anything from their K2 in MK-7 form, it may be due to low dosage. Most pills on the market only contain 100 mcg of MK-7. Unfortunately, 200 mcg of MK-7 is what is recommended to activate proteins dependent on K2:

How much Vitamin K2 do you need for your bones and your heart?
The adequate intake (AI) for Vitamin K is 90 micrograms (mcg)/day for women and 120 mcg/day for men.

This value is solely based on the Vitamin K1 requirement to prevent bleeding. It doesn’t account for your Vitamin K2 needs for keeping your bones and heart healthy.

So the ‘Adequate intake’ is, well, inadequate. Too low to protect your heart and your bones.

When people were supplemented with 200 mcg per day of MK-7 form of K2, the proteins that are dependent on Vitamin K2 were almost fully activated. Yet most K2 supplements on the market do not provide 200 mcg per pill.

You’d have to eat a pound of hard cheese to get that much MK-7.

The average intake of Vitamin K2 in Japan is 230 mcg per day. That’s very high and you don’t need quite that much to keep your heart healthy, but it partly explains why Japanese have low levels of heart disease...
From an article by article by Kathy Mankofsky RD, LD at https://omegavia.com/vitamin-k2-part-2/

...Choosing a Vitamin K2 supplement
MK-4 Supplements
  • 45 mg three times per day has been used in Japan to treat osteoporosis. This is an extremely high dose – doses of 1 mg or 1000 mcg is likely to yield significant benefits.
  • Studies show reduced arterial calcification with 45 mg per day of MK4. But in these studies they took it 3 times a day
  • MK-4 has a short half life (time it takes for half the consumed amount to clear out of your body) of 1.5 hours
  • MK-4 is usually synthetically produced, but natural forms are becoming available.
MK-7 Supplements
  • This form stays in your body up to 2 days and is well absorbed
  • It is usually derived from plants and you can take it once a day
  • The required dosage of MK-7 is much smaller than MK-4. Usually about 100 mcg per day.
  • Good news for vegans: many MK-7 supplements are extracted from soy (Natto.)
Most brands seem to offer only MK-7 as a single ingredient. That’s largely because this study showed a whopping 9% reduction in developing heart disease risk with every 10 mcg consumption of MK-7.

Since fermented foods in nature have a blend of MK-4, MK-7 and even traces of MK-8 and MK-9, we recommend that you can take a mixture of MK-4 and MK-7 along with green leafy vegetables and hard cheeses.

Norwegian Jarlsberg and Swiss Emmental cheese are good sources of MK-9. At this time, MK-8, 9 or higher are not available in supplement form...

A note of caution about fat-soluble vitamins…

Vitamins work together as a team, especially fat-soluble vitamins like A, D, E and K. If you have too much of one and not enough of another, the team falls apart.

Vitamins D and K2 work together with calcium as a team for good heart health and good bone health. Kate Rheaume-Bleue says that Vitamin A is also part of this team in her book titled Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox .
 

realturbo

Senior Member
Messages
143
I'm currently googling to see if I can find vitamin K with 200 mcg of MK-7 and possibly some K-4 as well
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@realturbo Check out this book and the purchaser commentaries at Amazon. Some claim that only MK-4 not 7 helped repair teeth... The book is by an expert on K2.

https://smile.amazon.com/Vitamin-K2-Calcium-Paradox-Little-Known/dp/0062320041/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1505756920&sr=8-1&keywords=vitamin k2 and the calcium paradox' by dr. k. rheaume-bleue

In particular this commentary:
CAUTION: misleading bias on supplements
ByMichael A. Georgeon August 14, 2012
Format: Paperback
I want to emphasize that this book is fantastic -- for the most part. Everyone needs to know about vitamin K2. This book is eye opening for many, many reasons. Please get it and read it.

However, if you go beyond food souces, her advice on supplement choices seems to gloss over, and perhaps even mislead, with some of the facts in regard to her recommendation for the MK-7 version of vitamin K2 instead of the MK-4 version.

Her main criticism of MK-4 is the that it is `synthetic.' That `synthetic' word is a red flag for many, myself included. However, all the supplements are made in a factory/laboratory. The MK-4 is still made with natural occurring ingredients, just like the MK-7.

But even more important, which one is really going to work for you!

My personal experience:
I have yet to hear from anyone that the MK-7 supplements will dissolve the calcified plaque that forms behind the lower front teeth. In 2 days, the Thorne MK-4 supplement completely removed the krud behind my teeth. I was amazed by this. Ever since, I don't need a teeth cleaning at the dentist. I had been taking the Jarrow MK-7 for more than a year without this dramatic effect.

This proves to me that this supplement is taking calcium away from someplace it's not supposed to be and, hopefully, putting it someplace that it IS supposed to be. Which is the major idea presented in this book.

I switched to the MK-4 as an experiment after reading Richard Nikolay's post on Free the Animal blog where he was surprised to notice this same teeth cleaning effect. And I had read about it along time ago in the Track Your Plaque blog of Dr. William Davis.

Why does this author emphasize that MK-7 is better than MK-4?

Please read the studies directly. The abstract googles up easily.
The frequently referenced study that concluded "A high intake of menoquinones, especially MK-7, 8 and 9 . . . could protect against CHD " was a study with data that was "estimated with a food frequency questionnaire." As if it were easy and/or accurate to isolate the effects of either MK-4 versus MK-7 from foods which often contain both.

Is it true that the Rotterdam study mentions that MK-7 seems to be better at preventing/reducing arterial calcification than MK-4? In fact, the Rotterdam study didn't indicate which of the menaquinones was responsible for the association, although supplement manufacturers tried to twist the interpretation into supporting their product after the fact. All the Rotterdam study showed was that a higher K2 intake (all forms) was associated with a lower CHD risk and arterial calcification.

What about the 'half-life' argument?
The reason MK-7 has a longer half-life in the blood is because it has a longer side-chain, is thus more fat-soluble, and thus is located more in the core of the lipoproteins that carry it in the blood then the surface, thus having less interaction with enzymes that would bring it into the cells. MK-4 is therefore more easily absorbed into cells.

But major studies are underway using MK-7?
The large studies currently in progress in Europe that the author is fond of mentioning are simply comparing the MK-7 menaquinone to Vitamin K1. They are not comparing MK-7 to MK-4. For the author to implicate that study as a factor to suggest MK-7 is better than MK-4 supplementation can be misleading.

Read more of this where I got it, without the book author's bias, at the Whole Health Source blog by Stephen Guyenet in a post, "Are the MK-4 and MK-7 Forms of Vitamin K2 Equivalent?"

A final comment from the above blog post by Chris Masterjohn, who is cited within this book for his article titled, "On the Trail of the Elusive X-Factor: A Sixty-Two-Year-Old Mystery Finally Solved"(highly recommended) which you can search for and read directly on the Weston A Price Foundation website:

"I think it makes more sense to go for MK-4 given the choice between the two . . . . The plasma half-life reason is utterly absurd, considering the reduction in plasma half-life is due to the MK-4 being delivered to the tissues where it carries out its functions! It's also much easier to get MK-7 from the diet in amounts comparable to the supplements, since fermented foods can be quite high in it and the supplements are quite low in it.

"MK-4 is cheaper than MK-7! All of the MK-7 being sold comes in much lower doses. I think Thorne is the most cost-effective source of MK-4, especially with my suspicion that it has much higher bioavailability than solid capsules loaded with binders and fillers"

This may confuse you a little at first. The science hasn't answered all our questions yet. Until then, some of what this book has avoided telling you may help you make better decisions in your choice of K2 supplements.

That said, my criticism is a little nit-picky thing. Beyond that, this book is loaded with enlightening material that you will want to share with everyone you know. I really hope you will read it.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@realturbo Good one. It delineates clearly the MK-4 particulars with regard to dosing:

Synthetic MK-4 supplements were the first to market, and the early research on vitamin K2 starting in the mid-1990s used this form, typically in a dose of 15 mg 3 times per day or 45 mg (45,000 µg) daily. While this dose is very high—and seemingly arbitrary—vitamin K2 is virtually nontoxic, so this became the standard dose in research and clinical practice.

One recent study used MK-4 in lower doses, such as 600 µg daily.6 Further studies are required to confirm whether MK-4 is effective in these lower, more dietarily accessible doses....

MK-7 has a much longer half-life than MK-4. This is a main reason that dosages of MK-7 may be as low as 45 µg daily and that single daily dosing is possible....
http://www.naturalmedicinejournal.c...ght-vitamin-k2-menaquinone-4-vs-menaquinone-7
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@realturbo Very interesting articles discussing the K2 supplements out there and what is best...
it appears as if you can only really get MK-9 by consuming fermented cheeses...
https://omegavia.com/how-to-choose-the-right-vitamin-k2-supplement/

My interest in MK-9 is because the mitochondria appear to favor it:

3.1. Mitochondria
It has been noted that, relative to phylloquinone, MK-9 seems to be partitioned to the mitochondria more whereas phylloquinone is found in the cytoplasm[187] and menaquinones has been detected in human and rat mitochondrial fractions (MK-4 through MK-13)[11][29] where they may serve a bioenergetic role.[188] It has been suggested that menaquinones are electron carriers (as they work downstream of the ETC)[188][189] and when irradiation impairs mitochondrial efficiency it can be rescued with vitamin K.[190]

Furthermore, application of vitamin K antagonists (2-chloro-3-phytyl-1,4-naphthoquinone)[190] or the mitochondria derived from vitamin K deficiency chicks[190] seem to have impaired ATP production. Addition of MK-4 to mitochondrial that do not have any functional impairment has failed to improve ATP production.[188][190]
From the extensive compilation on K at: https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/

Among the various cheese samples, the MK-9 (4H) concentration was highest in Norwegian Jarlsberg cheese, followed by Swiss Emmental cheese. In contrast, the MK-9 (4H) concentrations in Appenzeller or Gruyère cheeses were extremely low or undetected.
Quantitative measurement of tetrahydromenaquinone-9 in cheese ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17699024

In summary, our results show that commonly consumed dairy products in the US diet contain appreciable amounts of multiple vitamin K forms that are directly related to fat content.

Our study shows that dairy products are a significant source of menaquinones and that the menaquinone content varies by fat content of the dairy product. ...Dairy products obtained from the USDA Nutrient Data Laboratory and those purchased from retail outlets contained appreciable amounts of menaquinones, primarily in the forms of MK9, MK10, and MK11. Together these 3 menaquinones account for ∼90% of total vitamin K in dairy foods...

...The large diversity of vitamin K forms among dairy products may be related to the microbial species used in the production of fermented dairy products. ...Dairy does not contain appreciable amounts of phylloquinone... ... our data indicate that US dairy products are a good dietary source of menaquinone. MK9 was the major form quantified in the dairy samples, which is consistent with the findings of others (18, 19).

The vitamin K content of different cheeses showed significant variability in total vitamin K concentrations, ranging from 40 µg/100 g to ≤850 µg/100 g (Figure 1). All forms of cheese contained MK9, MK10, and MK11. We also measured modest amounts of phylloquinone, MK4, MK7, MK8, and MK12 in these samples.

The total vitamin K contents of soft cheese, blue cheese, semi-soft cheese, and hard cheese were (means ± SEMs): 506 ± 63, 440 ± 41, 289 ± 38, and 282 ± 5.0 µg/100 g, respectively.

Additional dairy products were examined including cottage cheese, cheddar cheese, and cream (full-fat and reduced-fat) and were found to have unique distributions of vitamin K forms (Table 3).

This differs from the conclusions of Manoury et al. (19), who did not find an overall association between MK9 content and fat content of fermented dairy products. Whereas the latter study conducted a single correlation analysis between MK9 content and fat content across all fermented dairy products, we compared the individual MK contents with different contents of fat within the same dairy product, which may explain why we were able to detect a consistent reduction in menaquinone content with reduction in fat content.
from: Multiple Vitamin K Forms Exist in Dairy Foods
Curr Dev Nutr June 2017, 1 (6) e000638; DOI: https://doi.org/10.3945/cdn.117.000638
http://cdn.nutrition.org/content/1/6/e000638#F1

Got cheese?

Finally ....a really good reason to eat my full fat soft cheese! :woot: My mitochondria will be so happy... :balloons:

http://www.google.com.pg/patents/EP2814327A1?cl=en
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
@Chocolove In the article you cited I notice this :
However, the presence of menaquinones in nonfermented products such as milk is largely unexplained and could relate to the microbial content of the highly specialized ruminant digestive system (24).
(24) McEwan NR, Abecia L, Regensbogenova M, Adam CL, Findlay PA, Newbold CJ. Rumen microbial population dynamics in response to photoperiod. Lett Appl Microbiol 2005;41:97–101.

It is interesting to note that the bacteria responsible for the high level of MK7 in natto live on rice straw.
MK9 is found in cheese like Swiss Emmenthal, which has a high percentage of bacteria that live in straw.
Really, the K2s we want are made from digestion of straws.
I don't know if you have seen this article. Very interesting.

In your K2 enthusiasm (of which I am part), please do not forget that at one point, there will be waves of oxalate dumping. You see everywhere warnings about balancing the A, D, K vitamins. But nobody warns about the oxalate dumpings, and nobody warns about the thiamine connection.
I think that on the one hand thiamine is needed to make menaquinones, but also that there must be some kind of balancing mechanism by which K2 uses up thiamine (and may deplete it as a result of supplementation).

Unfortunately I do not have enough training to understand fully what I read in scientific papers, but I assure you that my mind is clear and my body willing to experiment to bring a better future to all. I know the taste of truth. And it says: K2 thiamine magnesium.
Be well!
Asklipia
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
there will be waves of oxalate dumping
I have new thoughts about it.

Abnormally low testosterone in women has been linked with bone loss. K2 is a hormonal modulator and increases testosterone / bone mass (this increases the need for lysine and vit D for calcium retention).

Higher testosterone might cause increased calcium retention, uric acid build-up and pain.

Some flavonoids/high oxalate & salicylate foods, as well as malic acid for instance, can solubilize calcium/urate deposits, increasing the need for excretion. I know that in women estrogen is highly needed for uric acid excretion - I wonder about men. However, most natural xanthine oxidase inhibitors also inhibit aromatase (blocking conversion of testosterone into estrogen). Also inhibiting xanthine oxidase will cause a purine build up and create a need for molybdenum (to complete uric acid synthesis, to degrade sulfites and aldehyde since uric acid binds those (?)).

I am curious about what role thiamine has in this play.
http://www.jbc.org/content/139/1/145.full.pdf (old study from 1941)

Uric acid binds small amounts of bisulfite, reduces iodine, and is adsorbed on Lloyd’s reagent. Quick (18) found that in humans pyruvic acid had a very marked stimulatory effect on the excretion of uric acid. Since in thiamine deficiency pyruvic acid concentration in the tissues increases, an increased excretion of uric acid or of allantoin might be expected.

Investigation disclosed the following.

(a) Allantoin does not bind bisulfite nor reduce iodine and cannot be responsible for the increased bisulfite-binding substance of unadsorbed urine.8

(b) There is no significant difference in the uric acid excretion of thiamine-deficient and control rats. The uric acid was determined by the method of Benedict and Hitchcock (19) and was always less than 0.4 mg. in 24 hours.

(c) Creatine, which does not bind bisulfite, was increased in thiamine-deficient animals. However, the increase is not directly attributed to the deficiency, but rather can be accounted for by the degree of starvation induced by the characteristic anorexia.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
You may be interested in viewing the workshop entitled, “Vitamin K2: New Findings & Trends for Heart and Bone Health” featured world renowned experts on the topic of Vitamin K2 and its effects on global health. The youtube video links are below.
  • Dennis Goodman, MD, Cardiologist, Director of Integrative Medicine at New York University, and author, presented “Vitamin K2’s Impact on Heart Health: Changing the Standard of Care”.
  • Ted Reid, Ph.D., professor at Texas Tech, presented “New Discoveries in Vitamin K2 Function- Neurons, Muscle Health and Energy Output”.
  • Leon Schurgers, PhD, Associate Professor of Biochemistry at University Maastricht and CARIM (the Cardiovascular Research Institute Maastricht), presented “Vitamin K2: Key Vitamin in Controlling Vascular Calcification”.
  • Katarzyna Maresz, PhD, President of the International Science and Health Foundation presented “Vitamin K2 Essential for Children’s Bone Health”.