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Herx from zinc possible?

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Here's my logic:

Being low in zinc may lower the TH1 arm of the immune system while leaving the TH2 relatively unaffected:

Furthermore, the TH1/TH2 balance is affected by zinc. During zinc deficiency, the production of TH1 cytokines, in particular IFN-γ, IL-2, and tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-α is reduced, whereas the levels of the TH2 cytokines IL-4, IL-6, and IL-10 were not affected in cell culture models [46] and in vivo [47, 48].

https://immunityageing.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1742-4933-6-9


So when you start taking zinc, the TH1 comes back online and starts attacking things that are there, things that TH2 can't quite address properly.

So when you start to correct this deficiency, you have some sort of bad initial reaction (inflammation)?
 
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Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
Oh my Zinc makes me so sick, I take inmune modulator medicine. Any booster sends my immune system into overdrive.
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
Zinc also makes me horrifically ill. I don't think it is from a herx.

Note that the evidence you cite implies that zinc will only boost Th1 if you have a zinc deficiency. If your zinc levels are already sufficient, then adding more wouldn't necessarily boost Th1 any further.
 

sometexan84

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Old post. But I don't think @drob31 got enough credit for this. I actually agree with what this person's saying.

Right now, is the 2nd time I've herxed on Zinc.

I've had tons of autoimmune conditions, one of which is alopecia areata, where most of my hair fell out. It grew back... but recently, my hair started falling out again... run my hand through my hair and pull out like 3-5 hairs.

So, I started back on Vit A and Zinc. My hair isn't falling out now, but I'm still feeling the herx effect.

I think this person was on to something, especially about Zinc causing herx from the shift from Th2 to Th1. I feel more tired now from the intracellular killing of virus and/or bacteria, resulting in this die-off effect.

This is of course merely speculation. However, there are more things that match up to this being the case, which I'm not even mentioning here.

Moral of the Story: I know that many still don't really believe in these "herx" reactions. I believe that sometimes (in our conditions anyway) you need to keep taking something, even if it's making you feel worse. Could be quite beneficial in long-term.
 

vision blue

Senior Member
Messages
1,877
When i take zinc, i gargle with zinc gluconate (or is that glycinate...) and plenty goes down. I noticed somthing weird happens when i do this- my gums get inflamed. (there isone other thing that inflames my gums but in a different way). At first i thought maybe i was careless with particle debris just hanging around my mouth, but it's not that. I have never known what to make of that
@sometexan84 that moral is so complicating because means that if someting makes us feel worse, i'll be damned if i know when it means to go off it or when it means to stay on...doens't make your moral wrong, just adds hoplessness...

the one time I had based on context a herx reaction, unrleated to CFS (I think) here's what happened: i had what appeared to be celluliis on my arm. After trying my hardest not to take antibiotic for me, my fever was climbing, the pain on touch was excruciating, and it was spreading further and further both up my arm and down to my hand (making movement too painful), so i releented and at about 8 pm took first dose of antibiotic. What i did not know, is apparently cellulitis is very easy to kill. Went to sleep a couple hours later and during night was drenched in sweat- fever broke in a dramatic way. And like a miracle, no pain or redness or anything- it had been nearly completely wiped out very rapidly. I was thrilled to be able to move again and not have pain fever etc!

And then I got up. or rather walked to my kitchen. Heart went ballsitic (this was before i had any dysautonomia or rapid heart or anything). Went i think to 120 when i tried to stroll across a room and could feel it slamming away. Called pcp who (falsely i'm sure) wondered if it was from age of the antibiotic i took since he couldn't think of another explanation. advised if it went to 140 to go to ER. I did not swap out the antibiotic, but it wasn't directly that as i took more doses and it ddin't sustain the tachy. can't remember how long til it went away, but fact i can't remember means probably fairly quickly.

anyway, after reading about herx's years later alwyas wondered if this was a herx reaction. There was such rapid die off of alot of these bacteria given how fast antibitoic is able to killthe bacteria that cause that superficial skin infection.

anyway, definitely interested in this whole idea of what zinc is doing. i tend to use it as a modulator. if something is up and i don't know how to fix it i sometimes will try zinc as a state changer so perhaps i'm messing with my th1 and th2 blance. both of my helper systems are wonky and sometimes i have too much of one or other. i will try to push it around in other ways too like giving myself an allergic reaction or wishing for an injury...but hadn't thought that thats what zinc could be doing. dont' remember if it's on the list of substances that moves the see saw to one end of th1-th2 or not. but still dont' know if in any way related to my gum reaction.
 

sometexan84

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
@sometexan84 that moral is so complicating because means that if someting makes us feel worse, i'll be damned if i know when it means to go off it or when it means to stay on...doens't make your moral wrong, just adds hoplessness...
I wish I had more advice on when something is a herx, vs when it's actually bad for you.... I don't. I usually rely on the wait and see method... and if you've actually herxed before, you start to get a better feel for when something is a herx versus a negative reaction. And for me, the fact that my hair stopped falling out was a big factor.

Regarding the gums, when I had Behcet's Disease, an autoimmune condition w/ crazy mouth issues, I bet the same thing would have happened to me if I did what you did.

In the end, I had to get a swab done, and then a specific antibiotic. It went away pretty quickly. But I believe this is yet another case for me where bacterial translocation from "leaky gut" was the culprit