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Jim Faas comments on 'renowned' PACE trial

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
I appreciate what you guys are trying to do with regards to the other diseases mentioned btw. But imo they are a distraction. What matters is that no objective improvements where ever shown for CBT and GET with regards to ME/CFS and that there are overwhelming reports of harms.

I'm very happy it was discussed and added this sentence to the blog , please correct my english if you see any mistkes:

"My only question is whether it was actually the CBT that was the reason for the progress, as you mentioned in your blog. Of course, the GET (AET) group did exercises, but also the CBT group. So was it really just a CBT body & mind thing, or was it really just because of the exercises ???"
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
I'm very happy it was discussed and added this sentence to the blog , please correct my english if you see any mistkes:

"My only question is whether it was actually the CBT that was the reason for the progress, as you mentioned in your blog. Of course, the GET (AET) group did exercises, but also the CBT group. So was it really just a CBT body & mind thing, or was it really just because of the exercises ???"

Sounds allright to me. But as I said I don't see the point in trying to discredit CBT in other diseases. Imo that's just a distraction-tactic from their side. There is ample ammo to shoot at their suggestions about ME.
 

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
Sounds allright to me. But as I said I don't see the point in trying to discredit CBT in other diseases. Imo that's just a distraction-tactic from their side. There is ample ammo to shoot at their suggestions about ME.
I agree, and I'm not against CBT. It's just the recovery aspect that bothers me. And he is suggesting this in this disease as well. Or at least objective improvements and uses it to smear us at the end.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155652433784770&set=a.496586774769.272981.798244769&type=3

Anil van der Zee is with David Tuller and James C. Coyne.

September 8 at 3:25pm ·
Jim Faas is @ it again!!!

Former president of the association of insurance physicians (NVVG) and Senior Staff Officer at the Dutch unemployment office (UWV bezwaar en beroep) he's in charge of 700 insurance physicians has written his second blog about PACE and ME/cvs in "Medisch Contact". Medisch Contact is the leading (online) medical news magazine in the Netherlands.

It's again a little teamwork together with dr. Mark Vink and Anil van der Zee. It's so exciting to see this happening in the Netherlands. Things are slowly changing. Amazing. Let's keep pushing people.

Please share!!!

Nederlands: https://www.medischcontact.nl/opini...vsme-nog-meer-ongemakkelijke-onwaarheden-.htm

English (Google translate): http://bit.ly/2vSKnn0

Please leave a thank you Tweet underneath the blog on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/medischcontact/status/906157672600363008
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155652433784770&set=a.496586774769.272981.798244769&type=3

Anil van der Zee is with David Tuller and James C. Coyne.

September 8 at 3:25pm ·
Jim Faas is @ it again!!!

Former president of the association of insurance physicians (NVVG) and Senior Staff Officer at the Dutch unemployment office (UWV bezwaar en beroep) he's in charge of 700 insurance physicians has written his second blog about PACE and ME/cvs in "Medisch Contact". Medisch Contact is the leading (online) medical news magazine in the Netherlands.

It's again a little teamwork together with dr. Mark Vink and Anil van der Zee. It's so exciting to see this happening in the Netherlands. Things are slowly changing. Amazing. Let's keep pushing people.

Please share!!!

Nederlands: https://www.medischcontact.nl/opini...vsme-nog-meer-ongemakkelijke-onwaarheden-.htm

English (Google translate): http://bit.ly/2vSKnn0

Please leave a thank you Tweet underneath the blog on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/medischcontact/status/906157672600363008

Anil van der Zee
3 hrs ·
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155663825134770&set=a.496586774769.272981.798244769&type=3

A little update, Jos van der Meer, good friends with Peter PACE White has left a comment on Jim Faas's blog. Which is super rare. Interesting.

Google translated:

"In a blog you can of course take a leap with nuance, be biased, and your claims do not have to be scientifically substantiated. However, colleague Faas makes it a bit furious.
CGT declines as "talking" and GET as "moving" is a disqualifying simplification. The way in which critics of the PACE trial have been given the opportunity of the Journal of Health Psychology to criticize their criticisms would rather be ignored. It can be noted, however, that the PACE trial is not the only trial that has shown a positive effect of CGT (whether or not combined with a Graded Excercise Program), but Faas has apparently completed all these investigations. Then he makes a Cartesian giant swing with his positive appreciation for the Montoya et al. And the Rituximab studies of Fluge et al. However, I have to disappoint Faas: these studies are very fundamental and the results must be truly independent are confirmed.
? "

James C. Coyne and David Tuller you both need a subsription for this site.
1f642.png
:)
https://www.medischcontact.nl/opini...vsme-nog-meer-ongemakkelijke-onwaarheden-.htm
 

Solstice

Senior Member
Messages
641
There doesn't seem to be much of substance to van der Meer's comment. Maybe I'm missing something in the translation?

You're not. As we all know it's pretty impossible to defend the indefensible. I don't have an account on medisch contact and can't pay to get one right now. But it would be very easy to just counter him by saying:

those other trials you mention were they all open-label with subjective outcomes too? I know only of 3 trials that used actometer data and they turned up nothing. All the other trials, like f.e. Fitnet used subjective criteria in an open-label trial, a surefire way to get biased results. Allthough at long term follow-up even Fitnet turned up empty.

For as far as the rituximab trials are concerned, could you outline their flaws?
 
Last edited:
Messages
32
Side note, this is a quote from Van der Meer, about his CFS hypothesis:
Hoe ontstaat die vermoeidheid?
Hij maakt een schets die hij ook steevast aan patiënten laat zien: een spier verbonden met het brein. 'Er ontstaat melkzuur in de spieren waardoor er via de zenuwen een prikkel naar de hersenen gaat. Daar verschijnt op het display het signaal: moe. Daar handel je dan naar. Bij cvs-patiënten wordt ergens in het brein dat signaal versterkt waardoor het woord moe in chocoladeletters verschijnt. We weten alleen niet waar zich dat proces afspeelt en welke pijlen verkeerd staan.
(Rough translation)
How does the fatigue originate?
He [Van der Meer] makes a sketch he always shows to his patients: a muscle connected to the brain. 'The muscle produces lactic acid, and a signal is being sent via the nerves to the brain. There on the [metaphorically] display appears the message: tired. And you react to that. At CFS patients somewhere in the brain that signal is being amplified, which causes the message to appear in big bold letters. But we don't know where that process occurs, and which "road signs" are out of position.'
Source: https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/chronische-zoektocht~a3250965/

I think a patient with objective lactic acid increase like @Mark Vink would like to have a word with him?
 
Messages
48
Location
The Netherlands
He is calling for corporate doctors and insurance doctors to get out of the game for now, untill there's some solid evidence of what does and what doesn't work. The gist I got was, you can diagnose them but don't force any treatments upon them. Which all-in-all is a good thing imo.
Jim Faas keeps pushing with a second blog and he got a reaction from fatigue professor Jos van der Meer. You can find that reaction here. The translation Anil made with the help of Googletranslate is not totally accurate. https://corsius.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/1190/
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK

Grigor

Senior Member
Messages
462
Location
Amsterdam
I have small amounts of vegan sugar-free chocolate each day. (2-4 squares) It's sweetened with xylitol. It's made by Plamil or another firm - quite a lot are acceptable now.

According to van der Meer we have "fatigue" popping up in our brain in quite big chocolate letters so you can take all the sugar out as much as you want. The only thing that will cure you is stop eating chocolate and do CBT.