Is twisting the wrists while sleeping some kind of symptom?

[Gondwanaland]

OK, this is getting ridiculous, right?

EXACTLY

Interestingly 80% of my food intolerances are gone now with my current supplementation regime in addition to estrogen replacement therapy

 

[Paralee]

That's great, @Gondwanaland.

I heard on the news last nite (?) maybe this morning that in the US the millinials cases of colorectal/colon cancer have increased dramatically, and of course they don't know why.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@picante @Lolinda @Crux

I have been taking silymarin regularly (1x weekly) and it didn't trigger the wrist issue anymore.

Last night something interesting happened after I took some supplements -

• low-dose B complex (excipient leucine)
• a tiny bit of Lysine
• extra B5

They caused me instant stiff neck, but I had no trouble in falling asleep or staying asleep except for getting up in the middle of the night to urinate (with a very painful neck) and falling asleep again. When I got up in the morning I noticed I had been twisting/locking my wrists the whole night, which I had already concluded to be related with iron issues.

According to Accu-cell

http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html
taking higher amounts of Milk Thistle will in time decrease manganese and iron stores, which can be an advantage with hemochromatosis (excess iron storage disease), where regular consumption of milk thistle, RNA / DNA, zinc, magnesium and Vitamin B2 - as individually matched - will return iron levels closer to normal, and frequently eliminate the need for phlebotomies.
...
Iron Antagonists:
Zinc, calcium, magnesium, tin, cobalt, gallium, IP6, Vitamin B2, B5, B12, Vit E, [folate], caffeine, curcumin, oxalic acid, insoluble fiber, rice (phytates), tea (tannic acid), soy protein, dairy (casein), oil of oregano.

I usually take Pantethine, but since I am hyperreactive right now, I suspected the tablet contained nasty excipients, so I changed to Pantothenic Acid. However the only bad reaction I get from Pantethine is sandy eyes (which I also got last night mildly).

When I got up this morning my neck was still stiff and hurting, but it cleared completely after an arginine rich breakfast.

Conclusions:

• Both silymarin and B5 activate iron transport and cause me to twist and lock my wrists in sleep.
• Something caused me a stiff neck that cleared with arginine (B5? Lysine?)

 

[Crux]

I don't know why some of these supps. have caused pain in the past. I'm trying to figure it out since you brought it up, but still, .

Milk Thistle has been shown to be a good iron chelator, so it could be causing pain that way. I used to take it years ago, even made tinctures. It was neutral in effects for me, but I believed it was helping the liver.

Then, it began to cause a lot of pain in liver area, and neuropathy. I wasn't taking much, but stopped.

Lysine never worked for me either, but I can see how it would cause stiffness with increased calcium absorption.

I've never had a negative with B5.

 

[Crux]

Here's a possible reason why I had neuropathy with milk thistle,

Not only does it chelate iron, but it also chelates copper.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26785346

The last time I took mild thistle was.... ~ 5 yrs. ago....don't even remember.

I just took some of a tincture I made. I'm wondering if it will cause neuropathy , now that I've resolved the copper deficiency.

 

[picante]

From @Gondwanaland's quote above:

Iron Antagonists:
Zinc, calcium, magnesium, tin, cobalt, gallium, IP6, Vitamin B2, B5, B12, Vit E, [folate], caffeine, curcumin, oxalic acid, insoluble fiber, rice (phytates), tea (tannic acid), soy protein, dairy (casein), oil of oregano.

Yes, Izzy, I've been staring at this loooong list of iron antagonists, wondering which ones to drop entirely, which ones to decrease, and which ones just need to be taken an hour or two away from iron!

I cut back on B5 (I was taking 300 mg bid for adrenal help). I need the zinc to balance potassium and L-histidine. I've dropped oral magnesium, since my blood pressure keeps dipping down down down.

B2 - I don't know? I'm only taking 15-20 mg/day, for thyroid function, but since I can't take thyroid right now (my cortisol is too low), my TPO antibodies are partying (1672 on my last lab). So maybe it would actually help to stop B2 (R5P). I stopped curcumin, and I'm drinking only white tea. Oil or oregano helps my low-back arthritis.

Sigh. I'm convinced that low cortisol and low iron are responsible for my sudden bad reactions to thyroid hormone last spring.

 

[Gondwanaland]

http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html
Iron Synergists:
Phosphorus, bismuth, germanium, nickel, manganese, copper, Vitamin A, Vitamin B1, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, folate, niacin, niacinamide, lecithin, protein.

I suspect the deficiency in iron synergists might have been the culprit for the wrist-twisting (didn't have it anymore), being B1 on top of the list, followed by copper and niacin.

 

[picante]

I suspect the deficiency in iron synergists might have been the culprit for the wrist-twisting (didn't have it anymore), being B1 on top of the list, followed by copper and niacin.

Have you been taking any of those: thiamine or copper or niacin? Or using food to get them?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Have you been taking any of those: thiamine or copper or niacin? Or using food to get them?

Those are three things I don't tolerate in supplemental form, and yes, I have increased my dietary intake of them (I think almost doubled).

 

[kelly8]

It's so funny you talk about the wrist thing. I was doing this for a while and just thought it was an oddity of mine. I've always been an odd duck. I'll look into the sleeping positions. Thank you for your sleuthing!!

 

[RUkiddingME]

I find that the wrist locking for me is much worse during crashes. Even my arms turn inwards at the elbow towards my chest. Time to get wrist braces for sleep as I wake up in agony.