High Dose Vitamin C IV

[ChrisD]

Through lack of national health service support or functional treatment for CFS, I have become a bit of a 'Biohacker', trying many things to improve my health. Most recently I have been using High doses of Vitamin C orally to greatly improve my condition, I presume it is calming inflammation around the body and brain and generally it cuts through malaise and can have me feeling fairly normal for atleast an afternoon. But the quantity to do this is around 40-50g (40-50 homemade capsules!), it's not overly expensive but time consuming putting these together and slightly radical as despite there being no ill effects other than diarrhoea if not timed properly, I do have a slight concern that there could be a negative effect of all this.

Anyhow, since I crave the feeling of High dose C almost like an addiction, I have been looking into the costs of getting a high dose IV as many leading health professionals and rogue alt-health doctors discuss. I just wonder if it could be the big positive shock to the immune system that would flick a switch back into normal immune function. Has anyone tried this or does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[pamojja]

But the quantity to do this is around 40-50g (40-50 homemade capsules!)

Just take it by the teaspoon in water and sprinkle with a bid of bicarbonate, as Pauling did.

I would love to have access to professional IVs, but am still hesitant to become a junky in my old days:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

 

[Mary]

Just take it by the teaspoon in water and sprinkle with a bid of bicarbonate, as Pauling did.

I would love to have access to professional IVs, but am still hesitant to become a junky in my old days:
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/pdfs/civprep.pdf

@pamojja - you said on an earlier post that you took 20 grams of ascorbic acid and your body stayed alkaline. However, here you're recommending adding a bit of bicarbonate to the ascorbic acid. So I'm wondering if you added bicarbonate to your 20 grams of ascorbic acid - if so, that could explain how you stayed so alkaline - just curious.

Also, it's a great tip. I purchased some sodium ascorbate, more expensive than ascorbic acid, and didn't realize you could just add some bicarbonate to ascorbic acid to get the same effect.

 

[Mary]

Through lack of national health service support or functional treatment for CFS, I have become a bit of a 'Biohacker', trying many things to improve my health. Most recently I have been using High doses of Vitamin C orally to greatly improve my condition, I presume it is calming inflammation around the body and brain and generally it cuts through malaise and can have me feeling fairly normal for atleast an afternoon. But the quantity to do this is around 40-50g (40-50 homemade capsules!), it's not overly expensive but time consuming putting these together and slightly radical as despite there being no ill effects other than diarrhoea if not timed properly, I do have a slight concern that there could be a negative effect of all this.

Anyhow, since I crave the feeling of High dose C almost like an addiction, I have been looking into the costs of getting a high dose IV as many leading health professionals and rogue alt-health doctors discuss. I just wonder if it could be the big positive shock to the immune system that would flick a switch back into normal immune function. Has anyone tried this or does anyone have any thoughts?

@ChrisD - I've been wondering the same thing myself re high-dose vitamin C and IV vitamin C. Here are a couple of links which state that vitamin C helps with gluatamate neurotoxicity, and that can be very calming. I've been taking high doses of vitamin C in an attempt to calm my poor brain down after a slow taper off of low-dose but long-term lorazepam.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701025
http://web.stanford.edu/group/hopes/cgi-bin/hopes_test/vitamin-c/

I've also wondered about the effect of high-dose vitamin C on the various viruses associated with ME/CFS (HHV-6, EBV, etc.)

I did take a lot of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) for a couple of days (1 to 2 grams every hour or two), it helped with sleep but I ended up very acidic: achy and tired. So then I started looking into sodium ascorbate which is basically what pamojja is talking about above. So if you do try quite high doses of ascorbic acid, I would probably try it in the form of sodium ascorbate; or, if you do use plain ascorbic acid, watch for signs of acidity. I went by symptoms and the Ph paper.

 

[pamojja]

So I'm wondering if you added bicarbonate to your 20 grams of ascorbic acid - if so, that could explain how you stayed so alkaline - just curious

A little bid unlikely, used different amounts of potassium and sodium bicarbonate, but in average only 1.3 g/d. That much bicarbonate mixed with ascorbic acid would give about double that in non-acidic ascobate. Took an other 2 g/d as all-ready made ascorbates, witch would divide my total Vitamin C intake into about 19 g of acidic ascorbic acid and a bid more than 3 g as non-acidic ascorbates.

By the way, potassium ascorbate created this way is also itself an interesting compound again..

but I ended up very acidic: achy and tired.

Wait a minute, could you maybe have heavy metal issues? Worth watching:

 

[David Jackson]

@ChrisD, I do take around 10 to 12g ascorbic acid myself orally (in water, as pamojja suggests), and know that I should really get back up to 50g... but it would need a coordinated effort on my part to schedule the doses throughout the day, and I'm too distracted by other stuff at the moment to do it.

If you do go with the IV, I'd be interested to hear the results! My suspicion is that, while is might not switch the immune system back to it's proper function, it might make you feel even a bit better than you now do on 50g orally. But who knows, maybe it will work?

By the way, in your 'biohacking', as you put it, have you found anything else anywhere near as useful as the Vitamin C?

 

[Basilico]

Have you looked into making liposomal vitamin C with an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner? I came across this years ago, it's supposedly a way to transform the vitamin C into a form that can be absorbed at higher doses (similar to IV). If you do some searching, there are a variety of websites with information and directions. I've never tried it myself.

 

[Mary]

@pamojja - for potassium ascorbate, would you just sprinkle potassium into ascorbic acid? I take a lot potassium so this very interesting to me.

Re heavy metals: I don't think that was an issue for me for a couple of reasons. I've had a detox reaction many times (I think primarily mercury) in past years and know very well what it feels like, and this wasn't that. I've also pretty much stopped having detox reactions since I started taking glycine, inositol and glutamine a few years ago.

And again, the Ph paper showed I was very acidic after taking all the ascorbic acid. This coincided with my feelings of achiness and fatigue, which are symptoms of acidosis. And the achiness and fatigue went away when I raised my Ph and used sodium ascorbate.

 

[Mary]

Have you looked into making liposomal vitamin C with an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner? I came across this years ago, it's supposedly a way to transform the vitamin C into a form that can be absorbed at higher doses (similar to IV). If you do some searching, there are a variety of websites with information and directions. I've never tried it myself.

Here are two links: https://www.quantumbalancing.com/liposomalC.htm and http://www.tovatech.com/blog/19915/...trasonic-cleaners-for-diy-liposomal-vitamin-c

I made liposomal vitamin C using the jewelry cleaner a few years ago, and it tasted horrible. I can eat almost anything but this was like burnt rubber. It was very hard to get down. However, I then came across a description of making it using an immersion blender. It was much simpler and much quicker to make, and still was a very good product. It tasted very sour of course but that was no problem. Here's a thread I did on this with links to making your own, and how to determine if it is truly liposomal: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/easy-to-make-liposomal-vitamin-c-for-viruses.38867/

 

[pamojja]

for potassium ascorbate, would you just sprinkle potassium into ascorbic acid?

Use potassium bicarbonate. I get it expensively in local pharmacies.

http://www.pantellini.org/en/ascorbate/potassiumascorbate

But important to start slowly, the actual ratios in all ascorbates is described here:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-C/supplemental-forms

 

[pamojja]

Some more basics explained, for all who wondered:

 

[David Jackson]

I'm not a chemist or anything, so I could be totally wrong here, but, regarding the acidity of Vitamin C, I wouldn't really worry about it... your own stomach acid is far, far more acidic than ascorbic acid, and your body easily deals with that three times per day (well, if your liver is working correctly, it deals with it easily enough). 50 grams of Vitamin C is not going to acidify your body or anything.

The only thing I have heard is that taking large doses for a long period of time can wear on the tooth enamel, so it's best not to swish it around in the mouth. I usually take my ascorbic acid shortly before meals, and that is said to neutralize it's effect on the teeth.

 

[pamojja]

The only thing I have heard is that taking large doses for a long period of time can wear on the tooth enamel, so it's best not to swish it around in the mouth. I usually take my ascorbic acid shortly before meals, and that is said to neutralize it's effect on the teeth.

By age 30 I had only 12 teeth left, because of a injected tetracycline treatment as newborn, which they don't do anymore up to 2 years of age because of causing this issue to tooth-development. 20 years later, 8 of which with ascorbic acid along with comprehensive supplementation, all my left 12 teeth are as they were 20 years ago.

PS: with the exception of my first root-canal treatment 10 years ago, where short after all my serious health difficulties started, an me therefore with supplementation..

 

[David Jackson]

20 years later, 8 of which with ascorbic acid along with comprehensive supplementation, all my left 12 teeth are as they were 20 years ago.

Well, there you have it, then...

 

[Apple]

I've considered vitamin IV's but as I tend to pee out saline within 30 minutes of it being put in me, I'd imagine the same would happen to the vitamins. And as they are pretty costly the phrase 'expensive urine' comes to mind!

I've seen vitamin C injections for sale online. Have you considered those?

 

[pamojja]

They are very inexpensive to make oneself. See link in post no. 2. Also some commercial products prepare it the wrong way.

 

[ChrisD]

I am really interested to understand what is actually happening when I take high doses of Vitamin C (40g a day), and going from stiff, fatigued and heavy in the morning to energised, restless and feeling balanced (Not dizzy like usual). Equally after exertion, not experiencing the usual PEM. Is it that it is working on an Antiviral level?, Antibiotic? Anti-inflammatory? Disrupting Glutamate production? Or all of these and more?

 

[pamojja]

Or all of these and more?

Guess so. From a textbook:

Functions

• Collagen synthesis. Vitamin C is an essential coenzyme in collagen synthesis. Cofactor in the hydroxylation of lysine and proline, stimulation of gene-expression in fibroblasts; development, maturation and repair of connective tissue such as skin, bone, tendons ligaments, scar tissue, blood vessels and cartilage (anti-scurvy effect = ascorbic). Lack of ascorbic acid results in poorly formed connective tissue in the skin, joints, muscles, and bones.
• Hormone production. Glucocorticoids synthesis in adrenal cortex (stress-response), and Vitamin D-hormone (calcitriol synthesis). Production of epinephrine and norepinephrine, (the hormones released by the adrenal gland in response to stress) are dependent on adequate vitamin C status.
• Neurotransmitter metabolism. Ascorbic acid is essential for the production of norepinephrine and serotonin, two important neurotransmitters in the brain. Conversion of tryptophan in 5-hydrotryptophan (=precursor of serotonin), hydroxylation of dopamine into noradrenalin, synthesis of L-dopa.
• Amidation of neuro-endocrinic hormones. Gastrin, CRH (corticotropin-releasing- hormone and TRH (tyreotropin-releasing-hormone).
• Bile acid synthesis and cholesterol breakdown and excretion. The first key step in the degradation of cholesterol (also tyrosine; bile-acid-synthesis, cholesterol-7-hydroxylasis, HMG-CoA-recductasis) depends on vitamin C. Cholesterol levels in the liver and blood increase if vitamin C status is impaired.
• Carnitine synthesis. Ascorbic acid - together with cofactors niacin, vitamin B6, lysine and methione - is essential for the formation of carnitine, an amino acid required for breakdown of fats for energy (see pp.113). Lack of ascorbic acid lowers levels of carnitine and reduces energy production, producing fatigue and muscle weakness.
• Tyrosine metabolism. Synthesis and catabolism.
• Iron absorbtion and metabolism. Vitamin C sharply increases non-heme iron absorption from diet or supplements. Raising iron transference from transferritin (transport protein) to ferritin (storage protein)-
• Folic acid activation. To tetrahydrofolate (THF).
• Antioxidant function. Vitamin C is the body’s primary water-soluble antioxidant. It is present in the blood, body fluids, and inside all cells and helps protect against oxidative damage by free radicals of lipids (lipid-peroxidation), proteins, nucleic acid and cell membranes. (anti-inflammatory and anti-degenerative effects, e.g. in cancers, diabetes, arthritis, cataracts and cardiovascular diseases..). Vitamin C is also important in the conversion (reduction) of iron and copper to the form in which they function as cofactors in many enzyme systems, such as reduced copper in superoxide dismutase (another antioxidant).
• Antioxidant regeneration. Central building-block in the redox-chain of vitamin C, vitamin E, coenzym Q10 and lipoic acid and/or glutathione, Regeneration of glutathion-disulfide into glutathione.
• Vitamin E sparing effect. Regeneration of tocopherol radicals (vitamin E radical) into the reduced, anti-oxidative active alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E).
• Protection of folate and vitamin E from oxidation. Ascorbic acid protects folate and vitamin E from oxidation and helps maintain these vitamins in their active forms.
• Endothelial cell protection. Raising of NO-bioavailability. (anti thrombotic and blood-lowering effect)
• Detoxification and excretion of drugs and chemicals. Ascorbic acid helps maintain the enzyme systems in the liver that detoxify and excrete drugs and toxic environmental chemicals (such as pesticides and heavy metals). Detoxification of xenobiotika (synthesis/anti-oxidative protection of CYP 450) in the liver, excretion of toxins.
• Antiviral and antibacterial effect. Vitamin C is important for healthy immune function. It is essential for optimum activity of white blood cells and production of the chemical mediators that direct the immune response. Lack of vitamin C sharply increases vulnerability to infection (Immunocompetence). Stimulation of the cellular (antibodies) and hormonal immune system (interferon), protection of phagocytic membranes from oxidative self-destruction (prolonged function-time of immune cells), activation of complementary systems and of chemotaxis.
• Anti-glycation. Inhibition of protein glycosylation and AGE-formation. (e.g. HbA1C).
• Anti-allergic. Vitamin C plays a role in controlling body and blood histamine levels (histamine degradation and mast cell stabilization), and blood histamine levels increase when vitamin C status is poor. High levels of histamine can aggravate allergies, asthma, stomach ulcers, and certain psychiatric disorders.
• Anti-carcinogenic. Inhibition of the formation of carcinogenic nitrosamines from nitrites and secondary amins (especially of the digestive system), protection of DNA from oxidative damage.

 

[Starsister]

Regarding Ph acidity, I've often wondered when I take Emergen C that it may be the cause of me Feeling worse not better. I tend to be too acidic anyway, and it seems to correlate to fatigue and harder time controlling my yeast overgrowth, so I stopped taking it. It also has b6 in it and my lab tests recently showed high b6 so the neurologist told me to stop taking any b6 supplements as it could be making my neuropathy worse. So adding bicarbonate of soda reduces acidity?!

 

[jepps]

I am really interested to understand what is actually happening when I take high doses of Vitamin C (40g a day), and going from stiff, fatigued and heavy in the morning to energised, restless and feeling balanced (Not dizzy like usual). Equally after exertion, not experiencing the usual PEM. Is it that it is working on an Antiviral level?, Antibiotic? Anti-inflammatory? Disrupting Glutamate production? Or all of these and more?

My doctor treats her cancer patients with high dosage intravenous vitamin C and blood irradiation therapy, after several months they are cancer free.

And vitamin C is safe. According to Paul Jaminet 120 g/days for cancer patients have been well tolerated. John Brisson describes the safety of vitamin C regarding probiotic bacteria and acidity:

https://fixyourgut.com/vitamin-c-eliminate-probiotic-bacteria/
Does this mean that L-ascorbic acid ingested would eliminate the probiotic bacteria in the intestines?

The correct answer is that this is impossible. Ingestion of L-ascorbic acid (pH of 2.4 unless it is buffered) may slightly raise or lower pH levels in the stomach briefly (depending on the pH of your stomach acid) which if it lowers pH it can be helpful in keeping opportunistic bacteria like H. pylori at bay. 3 All acid is neutralized by sodium bicarbonate and bile in the small intestine. 4 In addition, the acid in your stomach (hydrochloric acid) has a lot lower pH than most ingested acids. So, if the proposed L-ascorbic acid eliminates intestinal flora theory is true, anytime you eat and stomach acid is produced all the bacteria in your stomach, small intestine, or colon would be eliminated.

Now I do recommend that if you are taking a probiotic supplement that it would be best that you take it away from any synthetic L-ascorbic acid supplement because of the possible slight decrease of pH in the stomach. I also recommend that you do not take a probiotic supplement at the same time as ingesting any acidic food, or during / after a meal.