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Esther Crawley - 18th May 2017 - A day with the MUPP(ets) and more

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
Trish - Please! Before you go ahead with compiling a list of names and addresses for what might be quite a long list of hospital and community paediatricians in the South West of England I would need to discuss this proposal with MEA trustees in relation to cost

We are very happy to send a free copy of the MEA purple book (which costs us approx £8 each time to do so) out to named doctors who are dealing with someone who has ME/CFS and might well read the book

Sending out 50 or 60 copies to doctors who may not even look at it would cost us around £400 in total - and we have to consider whether this would be a wise way of spending our member's subscriptions and donations

CS

Thanks for prompt response. I wasn't anticipating that many copies, but I take your point it may not be the best use of funds. I certainly would not want the MEA scarce resources to be wasted. Maybe I'll just research my local area and buy a few copies to send myself.
 

Mrs Sowester

Senior Member
Messages
1,055
I've replied to thm, v tired now, so off for a bit X sorry, no paragraphs on fb

Olivia Rowe Action for M.E. I may have voted for that study before I became aware of Esther Crawley's involvement and history with ME. It isn't difficult to find holes in the study design. The biggest red flag is the quote that 'Paediatric M.E. is relatively common (0.4 – 2.4% in children)'. That figure was arrived at by asking parents of teenagers if their child was very tired in a phone survey, if I recall correctly. Post Exertional Malaise was not a required criteria therefore the figure of 0.4-2.4% measures fatigue and not ME. This initial catastrophic failing renders the entire study pointless in the study of Paediatric ME, but I'll continue my critique. The next problem is how they've gathered their information from UK Paediatricians; children with severe ME by definition will not be going to clinics, they will be too far too ill. Severe children, like severe adults give up and stay at home in darkened, silent rooms kept alive by their families because at the moment the medical profession have nothing to offer except symptom relieving meds. So this study will, at best, identify moderate ME patients through to teenagers who are fatigued, but not 'unwell' via a questionnaire completed by a paediatrician, not by the GP, not by the parent and with no input from the actual patient. The panel will then study these questionnaires and decide who has or hasn't got ME - without seeing a single severe patient. There is so much noise from the selection criteria and so much room for misinformation and bias in completing and interpreting the questionnaires that this study is completely useless. I'm afraid it is a waste of fundraisers time, money and effort. If Esther Crawley wants to study fatigue that is ok, I'm sure there's value in it, but she's not helping children or people with ME by these poorly designed research studies. All she's doing is muddying the waters.
 

Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
This morning I sent the following communication to Dr Stella Imong - because she was (incorrectly) listed as the President of the South West Paediatric Club on their website

Dear Dr Imong

I am writing to you in your capacity as President of the South West Paediatric Club

Having seen the details of your study day - with the title A Day with the MUPP(ET)S - on the internet, a number of our members are contacting The ME Association to say that they find the title, which I assume was used to create interest and amusement, to be unprofessional and insulting to children with unexplained medical symptoms, as well as to children and adolescents with ME/CFS, which is one of the subjects being covered

As I am sure you are aware, the dictionary definition of a MUPPET is quite derogatory: An alternative term for an idiot or moron. Usually used in the UK to describe someone who is incompetent or gormless.

So I have to agree that this is a highly inappropriate and disrespectful title to use for a study day covering what is a very sensitive medical subject

Using the term MUPPET clearly implies to the patient community that these sort of symptoms are being trivialised and even laughed at by the medical profession

I hope you will accept that a serious error of judgement has been made here and that an apology is therefore called for
Regards

Dr Charles Shepherd
Hon Medical Adviser, ME Association
Website: www.meassociation.org.uk

It then emerged that the website information was incorrect and Dr Imong is no longer President

However, she informed me that our communication had been forwarded to the correct person for action

We have now received the following communication from Dr Imong

I would like to say how very sorry I am that this has happened.

Having had many emails today I realise that many people have been very upset by the title of the meeting and I know that the officers have apologised although I am aware that this is not enough for some of you.

However I would also like you to know that I have not been president of this club for two years as I retired and am now working part time.

The website has not been updated and until today I was not aware of this.

Please could you not address any further emails to me.

I will be forwarding all emails received to the ME association tomorrow and have forwarded all emails also to the officers of the club for them to respond.

Dr Stella Imong


I think this is a genuine apology from a doctor who does not want to be associated with what has happened today

CS

@charles shepherd

People really need to grasp that its not just the title of the meeting its the outright lies deception and scientiifc fraud that was the content of the meeting.

Please can you make this clear and outline it in detail within your further correspondence with the SWPC.

Secondly, surely now Esther Crawleys position within the CMRC is untenable and have you taken this up with Steven Holgate?


I don't know what is worse the MUPPETS acronym, or the (lack of) apology from SWPC and EC and the continued false claim of ME as MUPS.

Are the Esther Crawley supporting charities going to respond to this disgraceful attempt at an apology and pursue the matter further.......

.... or are they going to ignore the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM???


etc_elephantroom50__01__630x420.jpg
 

dangermouse

Senior Member
Messages
430
What they fail to understand is that it causes great offence because we are all on the receiving end of not being taken seriously and prejudice.

We all know this is how medical professionals think of us and talk about us among themselves.

We know they continually ridicule us and make fun of us and don't take us or ME seriously, we know we are a big Joke among them.

They are just embarrassed that their institutionalised prejudice and discrimination against people with a disability has slipped out publically.

It is exactly the same as institutionalised racism within the police, no different at all and until it is recognised and dealt with on an institutional level, through education and discipline where needed things will not improve. Yesterdays lectures only help to deepen the prejudice and misinformation.

I agree. This onslaught of MUS and somatic BPS nonsense needs addressing strongly. Plus, use of harmful acronyms should cease to be fashionable (and fun) as these names are a cause of stigma.

I was recently encouraged to have a referral to a CFS clinic with the promise of alternative therapies, when I checked out the referral form it mentioned MUS! I felt sick to the pit of my stomach. I am now even more less likely to attend my surgery. As an ex nurse I find all of these developments an utter disgrace.
 

Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
I agree. This onslaught of MUS and somatic BPS nonsense needs addressing strongly. Plus, use of harmful acronyms should cease to be fashionable (and fun) as these names are a cause of stigma.

I was recently encouraged to have a referral to a CFS clinic with the promise of alternative therapies, when I checked out the referral form it mentioned MUS! I felt sick to the pit of my stomach. I am now even more less likely to attend my surgery. As an ex nurse I find all of these developments an utter disgrace.

I really think this does need to be pursued by the ME charities and representitives from the ME community. In away this has allowed the opening up of a debate but we need to keep them in the conversation not just Oh we are sorry , goodbye.

It needs to be made clear to them that this goes a lot deeper and is much more serious and wide spread than this one little slip up.

It seems the MUS is so ingrained in their minds that it is a reality which they dont think to question. We need to be challenging this. That the reason they believe that these symptoms are unexplained is that nobody has educated them on the up to date research and science in these areas and they are willfully being kept in the dark being told that these things are unexplained when they are not.

I do think somehow this needs to be pursued, that this is an opportunity not to just pass by. The apology has not changed how children with ME and POTs and EDS are going to be treated at the hospitals and by doctors in the South West.

I don't think for one minute it will stop a large proportion of those who attended have a laugh and a joke about us ME patients with their colleagues.
 
Messages
17
I am very familiar with this book too, It is a book on Trauma and particulalry with relation to PTSD and complex - PTSD, it is for adults not to do wth working with trauma in children and is in my opinion is not helpful or relevant to ME, POT, EDS and Chronic pain in children. It got me thinking yesterday about this as I felt it was entirely inappropriate.

In a former life before a significant ME crash when I lived 'up North ', I worked with children and young people in a therapeutic capacity .
I can relate to you professional experience as I too worked/work in a similar setting- once a Pupil Referral unit and for years as a complex Case tutor for Education Other than at School". In November I wrote of "sheep and goats'

ruralres1
says:
November 12, 2016 at 12:56 pm
In the Radio Bristol Broadcast and on the various bulletins on Radio 4 The Today Programme announcing the FITNET trial, Esther Crawly stated that many young people who present at clinic have ‘low cortisol” in the morning. Perhaps Dr Hammond could offer information about how this is determined please? What tests are done? Dr Hammond stated, “I believe that it is likely to encompass a number of different diseases with different biological, environmental and genetic causations.” This is wholeheartedly agree with.

My son was part of the 1990’s RCPCH.Fatigue Study- now it appears re-branded ‘Children of the Nineties’ study.
I still have the original copy of my return. It was study where GP practices were asked about any child with “unusual fatigue” and it was completed often by a practice nurse. The child was not involved , nor interviewed nor had to give consent if I remember.

Also in the 1990’s, I was chastened (and worse, suggested “FII” fabrication or induction of illness in a child’) by local community paediatrics for asking for this possible ” low cortisol” and other hormone disruption to be investigated, even though I was aware that significant research on “low” cortisol had been done on adults throughout the 1990’s. In 2000, went to the “London Fatigue 2000 Conference” and actually questioned Simon Wessley and Anthony Cleare about this. In parallel, I was struggling to help a son with a diagnosis of ME. I was ignored then and subsequently by statutory services. My experience was the norm not the exception sadly.

At the time, from 1999, I worked as specialist educationalist in a Pupil Referral Unit for children out of school for medical needs. All our pupils had fatigue, often brought about by multiple complex reasons, including, misdiagnoses and inappropriate medication treatments (GPs or CAMHS prescribed) and /or their personal difficulties. These included long term chronic illnesses, diagnosed ME, serious allergies, Crohns, celiac, family violence, trauma, abuse, autism, Tourettes Syndrome, eating disorders, mental ill health and just being a teenager! – you name it and we had it!
Seeing these diverse needs in kids all day every day, I became a bit of a ‘medical “expert…….. it was not hard to separate “sheep from goats” unlike the above ‘Children of the Nineties’ study or it appears the FITNET trial.

The study by Esther Crawly in a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Whilst I agree, is necessary, nay essential to provide support for children with complex needs and to liaise with education services and others, (this should be being done anyway by law and the Children’s Act), my fear is this study and the inflated claims made as to “success” will fuel the problems and culture of disbelief in others and statutory services like Social Care & Education about “true “ME and CFS,. It will exacerbate rather than resolve it.
The BBC headline, 1st November 2016 “A therapy that successfully treats two-thirds of children with chronic fatigue syndrome is being trialed for NHS use.” is both misleading and potential harmful if proven to be less than the truth of ME.

As to, “The disease affects one in 50 children, leading to mental health problems and missing school. The devil will be in the detail. “Esther Crawly et al, in my humble opinion, must be held to account and show due diligence by separating the “sheep from the goats” before any further work in this field of ME is agreed to. More importantly, she should attempt to make a more robust and proper, unequivocal diagnosis of ME, rather than conflate the issue with her “diverse” group of very needy young people (most of whom are what I call “walking wounded- not severely affected)” who appear to be used as a vehicle to further and build her own career and reputation. Harsh as that may seem, and no matter how well meaning her true intentions to help are, she should really walk the walk before talking the talk.
Goats"!
 
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Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
Hi all, just to let you know that AfME have been responding to me on the FB post about this, don't know how to do a screen shot but I'm Olivia. They replied to my comment from yesterday or the day before, (sorry time is wibbly) an hour ago about the EC trial they are funding, saying it was voted for by members. I feel I should continue the dialogue because they are still engaging, but I'm foggy!
I'll check back later

It's so annoying how they keep implying that their memebers had asked for them to give money to Esther Crawley when members had not been informed that Esther Crawley would be running the project.

(And welcome back Mrs Sowester... hope you're feeling a bit better and have caught up on the last six months of the PACE rollercoaster).

and can appear inept

Can appear inept?

Would be nice if we could get them to go the whole way: "We said it was a day with the muppets because we are muppets. We are inept. We do not know what we're doing so we hold conferences where people talk vaguely about the importance of biopsychosocial factors in order to make ourselves feel like experts."
 

Jenny TipsforME

Senior Member
Messages
1,184
Location
Bristol
is exactly the same as institutionalised racism
This is an important point to do with advocacy. I've been trying to word my awareness tweets more in line with this. We are not unlucky, we are subjected to institutionalised prejudice. I also think it is easier to understand than the ins and outs of the PACE trial.

Do you know about the Social Model of Disability? MUS exemplifies the type of disablism that we experience.

I do think somehow this needs to be pursued, that this is an opportunity not to just pass by. The apology has not changed how children with ME and POTs and EDS are going to be treated at the hospitals and by doctors in the South West.
People with Spoonie conditions have a common concern here, which could be built on. I expect MUS is something we will cover in the Chronic Illness Inclusion Project research. We don't even have a website yet though so this won't be an immediate response!

it may not be the best use of funds
Given the strength of feeling, it could be a way to fundraise for more booklets? In my opinion a misinformed doctor is worse than an uninformed doctor @charles shepherd
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Below is a reply to one of our MEA members from Dr Miles Wagstaff at the South West Paediatric Club


Dear xxxx

Thankyou for your email.

Please accept our apologies for the title of the day, which we deeply regret.

It was simply a (badly thought through) attempt to advertise the event and attract a good size audience, after all doctors always like a good acronym... to be more specific, these patients have Medically Unexplained Physical Symptoms (MUPS), so it was simply an attempt to make a 'word' out of these letters.

Clearly, our choice of word was poor. I think at the time we thought it was referring to ourselves, who often struggle to manage these patients and can appear inept... we certainly never intended offence, and I can only apologise.
I am attaching below the text of the statement released by the SWPC yesterday.

A response on behalf of the South West Paediatric Club:

"The South West Paediatric Club is extremely sorry for the offence caused by the original title we gave our conference on medically unexplained conditions today.

"This was wholly unintentional and something we very much regret. As an organisation deeply passionate about improving paediatric care, we wish to make it absolutely clear that this was in no way our description or view of the children we are proud to care for, nor our view of the complex and serious subject of medically unexplained conditions which we have gathered together today to discuss.

"The reference in the title was aimed light-heartedly at ourselves as doctors and the challenges we often face trying to successfully treat medically unexplained conditions. It was certainly not a reference to our patients. We realise that our original title was an error of judgement for which the club takes full responsibility and we have removed all reference to it in today's proceedings and it is being removed from our website.

"The conference being held today is being attended by more than 100 paediatricians from across the South West and beyond and our sole aim is to learn more about this challenging area and share best practice. We are dedicated to improving the health, wellbeing and lives of our patients and we will continue to work tirelessly to improve the standard of paediatric care for children across the South West and further afield."

Kind Regards
Miles Wagstaff


Too often people claim their hate speech is 'humour' and a joke as an excuse. I suspect it represents their views of patients and from what we have seen as the content of they day only supports this view. They are not sharing best practice in anyway that has any scientific basis. So very misleading.

What I would like is for them to propose a programme of reform that makes clear such attitudes are not acceptable with doctors. When there is racism in football crowds the clubs have to have a process for dealing with it and banning fans who do racist chanting. Sexism in the workplace is often dealt with by awareness courses. So why no awareness training for doctors who abuse patients.
 

trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
Given the strength of feeling, it could be a way to fundraise for more booklets? In my opinion a misinformed doctor is worse than an uninformed doctor @charles shepherd

I agree we need to find a way to make sure the misinformation Crawley and others at the conference yesterday pushed to the 100 paediatricians is corrected. As an initial idea I suggested sending some of them the MEA purple book, however, as @charles shepherd says, this rapidly becomes very expensive, and there is no guarantee they will be read.

I'm now thinking about drafting a 1 page letter to send to paediatric departments, preferably to named paediatricians, setting out some simple facts and telling them how to get hold of a purple book. I might even run off copies of my letter to hand out whenever I see a doctor or other medical worker. Will take me a week or 2. If I manage it, I'll share as a blog post here.
 

NelliePledge

Senior Member
Messages
807
you should be giving the presentations not EC

I am very familiar with this book too, It is a book on Trauma and particulalry with relation to PTSD and complex - PTSD, it is for adults not to do wth working with trauma in children and is in my opinion is not helpful or relevant to ME, POT, EDS and Chronic pain in children. It got me thinking yesterday about this as I felt it was entirely inappropiate.

In a former life before a significant ME crash when I lived 'up North ', I worked with children and young people in a therapeutic capacity .

A majority of these children and young people has suffered childhood trauma and many came from socially deprived backgrounds. We are not talking suspected childhood trauma, we are talking files thick with social worker and police reports of actual documented events - domestic violence, abuse, neglect etc. A majority of these children were in the care system, residential schools/ care and foster, others had been adopted.

Last night and this morning I have tried to recall all the kids that I worked with to recall instances of what is being referred to as persistent physical symptoms or MUS and I can not recall any and some of these kids I worked with weekly over 2-3 years.

There was not one child or young person complaining of or investigated for chronic pain, chronic fatigue, none suffering from EDS, POTs and none had ME. I can think of 1 young person out of over 100 children and young person who for a few months could probably be said to be fatigued, but it was not unexplained, the YP was suffering from depression at the time, was up half the night on her phone, was eating poorly and not managing another medical condition which if not managing correctly causes fatigue.It most certainly was not ME. There were a few who complained of tummy ache or feeling nauseous when anxious or worried about something but this I condider entirely normal and common with many children. Nothing that needed the doctors intervention.

The majority of these kids suffered from pretty severe emotional problems , had extream difficulty with emotional regualtion, difficult to manage behaviour, some more complex psychological problems and some learning difficulties as a result of early childhood neglect . Some had other known medical difficulties but there was never an occasion of chronic unexplained symptoms or chronic unexplained pain or fatigue.

Given the theories being presented yesterday and EC's slide show the other week this is precicely the group of children that these MUS or persistent physical symptoms should be occuring highly in. But in my experience they did not. Now this is only my experience , for some unknown reason it may be completely atypical, but I can not think why it would be. Wondering if anyone else has experience of children, young people such as above and whether in their experience they suffered from unexplained physical symptoms more so than others - or POTs , EDS or ME

So it seems odd, children with documented trauma and adverse childhoods not presenting with these - in my experience, not more than usual anyway.

Then children who are presenting with these physical symptom, rather than being belived and taken seriously and further investigated are suspected of there being a psychological origin to their suffering and parents and home life is the first thing to be met with suspision, when there is no evidence only a theory because these clinicans have been told/ taught that is the first place to look and that it is likely psychological not physical in origin.

I have no doubt that childhood trauma can have an effect on physical health, but in my experience the tends to be more accumalative and progressive and begin to effect people more in adulthood - (I am not talking about actual sustained physical injuries here).

These psychological ideas just seemed to be so ingrained now that they are just not being questioned, certainly no critical thinking is being applied and no alternative possibilities being considered.

By the way, many of these kids refused to engage with the NHS Child and Adolesent mental Health team CAHMS, they hated them found them not appropriate and didn't help and often felt they made things worse, many would just refuse to go.
 

NelliePledge

Senior Member
Messages
807
Thanks for prompt response. I wasn't anticipating that many copies, but I take your point it may not be the best use of funds. I certainly would not want the MEA scarce resources to be wasted. Maybe I'll just research my local area and buy a few copies to send myself.
@charlesshepherd @trishrymes what about sending them something else that maybe points them to the purple book - eg if CS has recently done a presentation to medics just ping them all a copy of that???
 

slysaint

Senior Member
Messages
2,125
So, have patients in Action for ME been left in the dark about who was involved in the research?
A lot of members will be relatively newly diagnosed and assume that what AfME does and tells them is in their best interests and the truth (which is what you should expect from a dedicated charity); others might have been members for a while but continue to believe in AfME because they don't look for answers elsewhere and AfME are very good at generalising information.
I would imagine a lot of them have never heard of the people involved in the research let alone what they have done before and what they stand for. And those who might have some idea are fairly easily 'reassured' by AfMEs platitudes.

Although, this might slowly be changing as more information is getting out there.

But, as I have mentioned before, I think that the other ME charities (MEA in particular) should be trying to get equal billing so that people (initially at least) really have a choice and turn to them when they are first diagnosed.

eta: examples
https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news/paediatric-conference-today-sharing-our-concerns/
https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news...to-continue-being-classified-as-neurological/
 
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