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How many Gulf War/Middle East members on PR?

Diwi9

Administrator
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1,780
Location
USA
I have been considering my onset and history. I grew up in the Middle East and was there (KSA) during Gulf War I. I am astounded by the similarities between Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS, especially considering the atypical and classic subsets in the latest Hornig/Lipkin study (I believe they had one Gulf War Veteran who placed in the atypical group). Papers state that 25-32% of Gulf War I veterans have been diagnosed with Gulf War Illness, which is essentially ME/CFS (although more prevalence of MCS and neurological symptoms in this cohort, which is in line with "atypical ME/CFS"). Statistics show that 17.6% of Gulf War II (i.e. Iraq War) veterans have been diagnosed with Gulf War Illness. Furthermore, Gulf War Illness has been declared a real disease...not psychosomatic. When we want to discuss etiology, do these figures not astound others?

Are there others on this forum with links to the Gulf War/Middle East? I don't think this aspect has been vetted and discussed considering the subtypes in the Hornig/Lipkin paper.

My onset has been gradual. During Gulf War I, I was about 200 miles from the Kuwait border. We did experience scud missile attacks to my camp and oil well fire smoke for weeks. I had multiple contacts with bases, soldiers, and their equipment...including taking materials home with me. I was a teenager and had my bedroom decked with "tokens." This inquest could be spurious, but given the statistics, I cannot negate an environmental/toxic insult that set me up for ME/CFS...and maybe others have some history too?
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
I wonder how many cases have to do with vaccines such as anthrax vaccine, or depleted uranium dust?
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
There are studies, but etiology seems inconclusive. However, the incidence is so great that one cannot deny some environmental insult that interrupted immune function.
 

5150

Senior Member
Messages
360
I have been considering my onset and history. I grew up in the Middle East and was there (KSA) during Gulf War I. I am astounded by the similarities between Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS, especially considering the atypical and classic subsets in the latest Hornig/Lipkin study (I believe they had one Gulf War Veteran who placed in the atypical group). Papers state that 25-32% of Gulf War I veterans have been diagnosed with Gulf War Illness, which is essentially ME/CFS (although more prevalence of MCS and neurological symptoms in this cohort, which is in line with "atypical ME/CFS"). Statistics show that 17.6% of Gulf War II (i.e. Iraq War) veterans have been diagnosed with Gulf War Illness. Furthermore, Gulf War Illness has been declared a real disease...not psychosomatic. When we want to discuss etiology, do these figures not astound others?
___________________________________________________________________
Hi Diwi9, think back about how many times you were in a room-full of other soldiers. All it takes is 1, who is infected with CFS or GWS or whatever it's now called, and Boom (in my opinion), the entire room can become infected . . . if one puts credence into the "contagious" theory, and I for one certainly do believe it.

Why hasn't more emphasis been put on determining For Sure if cfs/me is really contagious or not? It sure would make things easier just knowing for sure or not.

Thanks for your help in the military. / RVN grunt here... getting old :)
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
@5150 - I was not in the military, just an American kid growing up overseas and our family did all we could to support American troops serving in the desert. My Dad is also a Vietnam vet, two tours.

Contagion is an interesting concept, but I don't know anyone else I grew up with that has my condition. My Dad definitely has MCS and I have a sister who suffered thyroid problems at a young age. I just cannot fathom that 200,000 of 700,000 Gulf War I soldiers have been diagnosed with GWS/I and it looks like ME/CFS. Why is this not a huge issue on the forum? Why are we not a combined force, because the government has given our condition different names?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
If you look at the Wikipedia article on Gulf War Illness, it covers the various suspected causal factors. The two factors that appear to be the most likely causes are:

• Organophosphate pesticides used as insect repellents during the wars, to keep rates of pest-borne diseases low.

• Chronic exposure to sarin gas (also an organophosphate compound) and mustard gas at low, nonlethal levels, from sources such as from Iraqi chemical attacks, or from allied bombings of Iraqi chemical warfare munitions facilities. A large number of troops were exposed to the chemical warfare agents released during the postwar demolition of one particular Iraqi chemical warfare depot ("Bunker 73") in Khamisiyah, Iraq.


Studies in Scotland showed that farmers exposed to "sheep dip" organophosphate pesticides suffered a lot of sickness, and have 4 times the risk of developing ME/CFS. Refs: 1 2 3


Some forum threads about the ill effects of organophosphates:
 

Gingergrrl

Senior Member
Messages
16,171
I wonder how many cases have to do with vaccines such as anthrax vaccine, or depleted uranium dust?

There are also theories re: Gulf War Syndrome that it was, at least in part, due to the vets being given Cipro and Larium (two very dangerous Fluoroquinolones). There was a member of PR (I am blanking on his name or I would tag him for you @Diwi9) who got Gulf War Syndrome from a vaccine but he was never in the military. I wish I could think of his name!
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
If you look at the Wikipedia article on Gulf War Illness, it covers the various suspected causal factors. The two factors that appear to be the most likely causes are:

• Organophosphate pesticides

• Chronic exposure to sarin gas (also an organophosphate compound) and mustard gas at low, nonlethal levels

I think there is a big indicator of etiology. The introduction of organophospates into modern civilization and individual vulnerabilities, especially at specific developmental points may make us vulnerable to development of ME/CFS. One would suspect that the level and duration of exposure during the Gulf Wars, may create the maelstrom of cases.

GWS/I needs to be fundamentally linked to ME/CFS, as Hornig and Lipkin indicate in their study: distinct subsets lead to the same (similar) result.
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
Also from Wikipedia
Organophosphate poisoning
Main article: Organophosphate poisoning
Many "organophosphates" are potent nerve agents, functioning by inhibiting the action of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) in nerve cells. They are one of the most common causes of poisoning worldwide, and are frequently intentionally used in suicides in agricultural areas. Organophosphosphate pesticides can be absorbed by all routes, including inhalation, ingestion, and dermal absorption. Their inhibitory effects on the acetylcholinesterase enzyme lead to a pathological excess of acetylcholine in the body. Their toxicity is not limited to the acute phase, however, and chronic effects have long been noted. Neurotransmitters such as acetylcholine (which is affected by organophosphate pesticides) are profoundly important in the brain's development, and many organophosphates have neurotoxic effects on developing organisms, even from low levels of exposure. Other organophosphates are not toxic, yet their main metabolites, such as their oxons, are. Treatment includes both a pralidoxime binder and an anticholinergic such as atropine.

Health effects[edit]
Chronic toxicity[edit]
Repeated or prolonged exposure to organophosphates may result in the same effects as acute exposure including the delayed symptoms. Other effects reported in workers repeatedly exposed include impaired memory and concentration, disorientation, severe depressions, irritability, confusion, headache, speech difficulties, delayed reaction times, nightmares, sleepwalking, drowsiness, or insomnia. An influenza-like condition with headache, nausea, weakness, loss of appetite, and malaise has also been reported.[8]

A recent study done by Madurai Kamaraj University in India have shown a direct correlation between usage of organophosphates and diabetes among Indian agricultural population. [9]

Low-level exposure[edit]
Even at relatively low levels, organophosphates may be hazardous to human health. The pesticides act on acetylcholinesterase,[10] an enzyme found in the brain chemicals closely related to those involved in ADHD, thus fetuses and young children, where brain development depends on a strict sequence of biological events, may be most at risk.[11][12] They can be absorbed through the lungs or skin or by eating them on food. According to a 2008 report from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, ″detectable″ traces of organophosphate were found in a representative sample of produce tested by the agency, 28% of frozen blueberries, 20% of celery, 27% of green beans, 17% of peaches, 8% of broccoli, and 25% of strawberries.[13]

The United States Environmental Protection Agency lists parathion as a possible human carcinogen.[14]

A 2007 study linked the organophosphate insecticide chlorpyrifos, which is used on some fruits and vegetables, with delays in learning rates, reduced physical coordination, and behavioral problems in children, especially ADHD.[15]

An organic diet is an effective way to reduce exposure to the organophosphorus pesticides commonly used in agricultural production.[16] Organophosphate metabolite levels rapidly drop, and for some metabolites, become undetectable in children's urine when an organic diet is consumed.[16] This is speculative based on a short study of 23 children, in which only a few organophosphate compounds were potentially reduced, no effect was shown for the majority of them that were found in the samples.

Occupational organophosphate exposure is associated with an increased risk of Alzheimer's disease.[17] Another study found that each 10-fold increase in urinary concentration of organophosphate metabolites was associated with a 55% to 72% increase in the odds of children being diagnosed with ADHD.[18][19][20] Researchers analyzed the levels of organophosphate residues in the urine of more than 1,100 children aged 8 to 15 years old, and found that those with the highest levels of dialkyl phosphates, which are the breakdown products of organophosphate pesticides, also had the highest incidence of ADHD. Overall, they found a 35% increase in the odds of developing ADHD with every 10-fold increase in urinary concentration of the pesticide residues. The effect was seen even at the low end of exposure; children who had any detectable, above-average level of pesticide metabolite in their urine were twice as likely as those with undetectable levels to record symptoms of ADHD.
/QUOTE]

***Bolding other than headings are mine. The connection is uncanny?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@Diwi9, I actually had around 9 months chronic exposure to organophosphates, as unbeknown to me, a large amount of organophosphate was spilt in my home. It really screwed up my brain, and I suffered from some mild psychosis as a result. Then shortly after this exposure, I caught a virus, and this led to my ME/CFS. I think both virus and organophosphate probably played a role in the development of my ME/CFS.
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
Is there anything we can learn from this paper discussing interventions that have lead to GWS remission?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132774
Still reading it, but makes me happy to see a realistic review of immune and endocrine disruption being studied...and in a male cohort.

On the Nova Southeastern University's website, they are recruiting for ME/CFS (male and female participants) and female GWS/I sufferers for a VA study:
Miami VA Studies

The INIM is conducting research at the Miami VA on behalf of the NIH, Miami VA and Department of Defense to better understand Gulf War Illness and ME/CFS in both men and women. Eligible participants for the studies below will be compensated for their time, travel and receive a complete and complementary immune check up.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Female Gulf War Veterans
We are currently enrolling female Gulf War Veterans between the ages of 34 and 65.

For more information, please contact Fanny Collado at 305.575.7000 ext. 6706
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Women with ME/CFS
We are currently enrolling women with ME/CFS who are between the ages of 18 and 65 and have presented fatigue syndromes for more than 6 months.

For more information, please contact Fanny Collado at 305.575.7000 ext. 6706
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
  • Men with ME/CFS
We are currently enrolling men with ME/CFS who are between the ages of 18 and 65 and have had the illness for at least 6 months.

For more information, please contact Fanny Collado at 305.575.7000 ext. 6706
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
@Diwi9, I actually had around 9 months chronic exposure to organophosphates, as unbeknown to me, a large amount of organophosphate was spilt in my home. It really screwed up my brain. Then shortly after this exposure, I caught a virus, and this led to my ME/CFS. I think both virus and organophosphate probably played a role in the development of my ME/CFS.
This seems like a likely combination, especially given the proximity of vaccinations given to soldiers in time with organophospate exposure.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
Is there anything we can learn from this paper discussing interventions that have lead to GWS remission?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0132774

Looks like they created a computer model of the interactions of the immune system, HPA-axis and HPG-axis, and then tried out some interventions on that model. I have not come across such research before, and don't know how valid it is; but seems to me like a bit of a long shot that this model and the treatments that worked might correspond to actual GWI.
 

aaron_c

Senior Member
Messages
691
In the USA, our Environmental Protection Agency issued a report based on over a decade of research into chlorpyrifos, another flavor of organophosphate. They wanted to either ban or curtail use of what is now the "coco-cola of pesticides" (because it is so popular). Unfortunately, the report required a 60-day comment period and three days before the close of the comment period Trump was inaugurated. Now the EPA is no longer interested in restricting the use of chlorpyrifos.

Although chlorpyrifos are organophosphates, I really don't know how much we can generalize.

One interesting thing I read in the articles is babies eating (I assume) non-organic baby food were being exposed to up to 140 times the "exposure limit." I've heard people saying for years that there is no need to eat organic because the pesticides are washed off before we eat them. This would seem to argue strongly against that.

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/05...a-to-force-ban-of-pesticide-linked-to-autism/

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/14...-using-a-pesticide-linked-to-autism-and-adhd/
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
Organophosphates are part of a huge cover up, or perhaps "aiir brushing" is more appropriate for some of it

#1
Documentary on UKs channel 4, iirc, was about British chemical workers making nerve gas for our military in 1950 1960s, many of whom suffered dreadful health problems from even the tiniest leaks of those vile chemicals
As usual UK government covered it up by using the Official Secrets Act to terrorize the men into silence

#2
I bloody knew something dirty was going on in the 1980s because a Tory politician who was strongly involved with forcing farmers to use sheep dip by law, ended up working for the company who made the chemicals

#3
Britain and America DID sell/give info and equipment to Saddam for making nerve gas, to use against Iranians
Note our scumbag politicians weren't complaining much when it was being used on the Iranian army, the carnage gasses, minefields, airbursts, old fashioned water cooled machine guns and then giant flame throwers did on one of the loony Iranian mass wave charges was unfrikkin believable :(

I've read several pieces suggesting that some of the SCUDs launched against Coalition/Saudi were actually loaded with nerve gas, this was possibly covered up to keep the lid on the whole disgusting WMD trade and more importantly, President Bush had, understandably, threatened to retaliate against any WMD attacks with thermonuclear strike on Baghdad
Truth that Gulf War was also a lie, again about oil, control etc, so the "powers behind the throne" didn't want nuclear weapons fired
So, big cover up

Also as poster above notes blowing up some munition bunkers released war gasses and possibly bio-chem materials as well. Aflatoxins, brucelosis etc
British army units were ordered to turn off their gas alarm system as they kept going off....so like "just ignore it, it's ok!"...standard operating procedure, giving the troops the Mushroom Treatment, not carijg a damn about them from on high

Note that aflatoxins can badly compromise the immune system and are not just found in NBC weapon labs, pretty common actually as they come from moulds and some can like nerve gas penetrate the skin
While organophosphates are extremely potent adjuvants (make immune system hyper reactive)
 

wastwater

Senior Member
Messages
1,271
Location
uk
Has anyone read brucellosis triangle,I was thinking of buying it,if I can find it.
Meant to be sequel to unfortunate skull valley incident,looks interesting.
 

Diwi9

Administrator
Messages
1,780
Location
USA
Came across this article showing an association between toxic (pesticide) exposure and "Chronic Multisymptom Illness," but no association for oil smoke exposure.
http://journals.lww.com/joem/Abstract/2017/01000/The_Association_Between_Toxic_Exposures_and.9.aspx

What is the need for the name change? It can't be called Gulf War Illness, because its also seen in veterans from Afghanistan. Amazing how much this condition can be obfuscated by calling it a million different names.

Also, this paper distinguishing ME/CFS and GWS based on cytokine signatures, DeMeirleir is an author...sort of a precursor to Hornig/Lipkin's latest.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1043466614006024
 

5150

Senior Member
Messages
360
@5150 - I was not in the military, just an American kid growing up overseas and our family did all we could to support American troops serving in the desert. My Dad is also a Vietnam vet, two tours.

Contagion is an interesting concept, but I don't know anyone else I grew up with that has my condition. My Dad definitely has MCS and I have a sister who suffered thyroid problems at a young age. I just cannot fathom that 200,000 of 700,000 Gulf War I soldiers have been diagnosed with GWS/I and it looks like ME/CFS. Why is this not a huge issue on the forum? Why are we not a combined force, because the government has given our condition different names?

@Diwi9 i am so far affected by this illness, I don't have a clue about organizing that effort. But I think you are right. We should team up --- it's the same or darn close related. The HIV'ers aren't lifting one finger to help us. so eff them.