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Dr Raymond Perrin(perrin technique) is hoping to have published reports this year

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
Who are the 'they' that have proven his theories are 'fact'.

His theory is (from his website)


So how do stressful emotions cause a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain? Where is his research to support this or any research to support this?

Where is the research to show normal drainage points in ME patients are congested?

Where is the research to shows that toxins cause ME? And which toxins would they be? And where is the research that shows what symptoms the toxins are causing?

I see his technique is trademarked and if you have the proper credentials you can get in on the franchise. So basically he is marketing detoxification based on no real research.

Another huge problem I have with this is his description of 'congested drainage points' in ME patients.
When lymph flow is impeded, it results in lymphedema which affects approximately 100 million people worldwide. Symptoms include swelling where the flow is impeded, pitting edema. ME patients don't generally show any signs and symptoms of impeded lymph flow. How is this possible? How is it that 100 million people with impeded lymph flow aren't suffering from brain toxicity.

The presence of any chemicals in the body doesn't mean they are doing harm.

There are a lot of products out there that describe the kidneys and liver as filter-like mechanisms where the catch and retain the 'toxins'. You need the product to clean out your kidneys and livers. The problem with this, it isn't how the liver and kidneys work.

The liver performs a series of chemical reactions to convert 'toxic' substances into ones that can be eliminated by the bile or in the kidneys. 'Toxins' don't accumulate in the liver because it is basically self-cleaning. The liver functions just fine unless you have some kind of liver disease. The kidneys function to excrete waste products into the urine. Substances the body needs are reabsorbed, waste is not. It is a huge problem for the kidneys to malfunction.

Perrin is selling detox too via massage. His statements show he is either profoundly ignorant of how the human body works or he is a clever salesman.

Perrin is also profoundly ignorant of how science works if he did say his theories have been proven as 'fact'.

Nothing about the Perrin is alluding 'detox' has been proven as 'fact'. In science, theory refers to a well-confirmed explanation of something that is made in a way consistent with scientific method. Hypotheses are testable and are descriptive accounts of how nature behaves under certain conditions.

His so-called 'theory' of lymph flow and toxins is not well-confirmed and certainly hasn't been formed using any scientific method. I think if his hypothesis about lymph flow and toxin were to be tested using proper scientific methodology, it would all fall apart rapidly.


Which part? I think a brain scan would reveal the mechanical details but not the rest of his speculative associations to toxins and ME.



That inspires no confidence in me. Why a 'Harley St' neurologist? I have not heard of a neurologist who would support massage to rid the body of toxins. What toxicology tests would they be using -- this would have to be a private venture because I don't see the NHS supporting this. Just what are they going to be testing for? Most of these tests reveal the presence of drugs/chemicals in the blood and/or urine which would not indicate their presence in the lymph fluid. Wouldn't you have to test lymph fluid directly?



Evidence. I have never seen this in any of the clinical criteria.


We do have something called the blood brain barrier that protects the brain from many chemicals. When toxins build up in the brain because they get across the BBB, it's called toxic encephalopathy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy

Lymphatic drainage is not the treatment for a buildup of toxic chemicals in the brain.

New research suggests sleep might be a factor -- https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-flush-out-toxins-during-sleep



More about the 'world-renowned' Professor Mathias --
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/professor-mathias-m-e.8942/

Yeah I have all those answers.

Jesus H Christ


FYI Articles of interest about the "detox myth".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detoxification_(alternative_medicine)m

http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-dubious-practice-of-detox

I've always wondered how these detox ingredients can differentiate between toxins vs. ingredients that are needed by the body

Harvard medical school do so much for CFS patients?

The mainstream narrative is that diseases are from genetic or bad luck.
 
Messages
1,478
Who are the 'they' that have proven his theories are 'fact'.

His theory is (from his website)


So how do stressful emotions cause a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain? Where is his research to support this or any research to support this?

Where is the research to show normal drainage points in ME patients are congested?

Where is the research to shows that toxins cause ME? And which toxins would they be? And where is the research that shows what symptoms the toxins are causing?

I see his technique is trademarked and if you have the proper credentials you can get in on the franchise. So basically he is marketing detoxification based on no real research.

Another huge problem I have with this is his description of 'congested drainage points' in ME patients.
When lymph flow is impeded, it results in lymphedema which affects approximately 100 million people worldwide. Symptoms include swelling where the flow is impeded, pitting edema. ME patients don't generally show any signs and symptoms of impeded lymph flow. How is this possible? How is it that 100 million people with impeded lymph flow aren't suffering from brain toxicity.

The presence of any chemicals in the body doesn't mean they are doing harm.

There are a lot of products out there that describe the kidneys and liver as filter-like mechanisms where the catch and retain the 'toxins'. You need the product to clean out your kidneys and livers. The problem with this, it isn't how the liver and kidneys work.

The liver performs a series of chemical reactions to convert 'toxic' substances into ones that can be eliminated by the bile or in the kidneys. 'Toxins' don't accumulate in the liver because it is basically self-cleaning. The liver functions just fine unless you have some kind of liver disease. The kidneys function to excrete waste products into the urine. Substances the body needs are reabsorbed, waste is not. It is a huge problem for the kidneys to malfunction.

Perrin is selling detox too via massage. His statements show he is either profoundly ignorant of how the human body works or he is a clever salesman.

Perrin is also profoundly ignorant of how science works if he did say his theories have been proven as 'fact'.

Nothing about the Perrin is alluding 'detox' has been proven as 'fact'. In science, theory refers to a well-confirmed explanation of something that is made in a way consistent with scientific method. Hypotheses are testable and are descriptive accounts of how nature behaves under certain conditions.

His so-called 'theory' of lymph flow and toxins is not well-confirmed and certainly hasn't been formed using any scientific method. I think if his hypothesis about lymph flow and toxin were to be tested using proper scientific methodology, it would all fall apart rapidly.


Which part? I think a brain scan would reveal the mechanical details but not the rest of his speculative associations to toxins and ME.



That inspires no confidence in me. Why a 'Harley St' neurologist? I have not heard of a neurologist who would support massage to rid the body of toxins. What toxicology tests would they be using -- this would have to be a private venture because I don't see the NHS supporting this. Just what are they going to be testing for? Most of these tests reveal the presence of drugs/chemicals in the blood and/or urine which would not indicate their presence in the lymph fluid. Wouldn't you have to test lymph fluid directly?



Evidence. I have never seen this in any of the clinical criteria.


We do have something called the blood brain barrier that protects the brain from many chemicals. When toxins build up in the brain because they get across the BBB, it's called toxic encephalopathy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy

Lymphatic drainage is not the treatment for a buildup of toxic chemicals in the brain.

New research suggests sleep might be a factor -- https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-flush-out-toxins-during-sleep



More about the 'world-renowned' Professor Mathias --
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/professor-mathias-m-e.8942/

Thank you @Kina for this......sometimes the alternative practioners put up such a volume of inaccuracies around their web of justification for their "theory" I find it difficult to untangle it. You have described what I have struggled to put into words.

other angles that should prompt suspicion, I was going to suggest were:

1). He has a trade mark for his process but hasn't shown results in the form of trials to prove that the process works. This is very similar to other so called processes (lightening process etc). He is using trade marking to infer credibility to the consumer.

2) He is using historical mediaeval practices that have been superseded by modern medicine. I don't think he recommends leeches or humours, but the principles appear to be the same. Basically he has shoehorned modern medical terms into old wives tales about The removal of these unnamed "toxins" to give them a perceived validity. Once again without any proper scientific studies to prove what he's saying. This pseudoscience trick is deployed by many internet charletons and as you mention doesn't seem to show a basic understanding of how the human body works in terms of modern medicine. This I think is the clearest indication to me that it is a moneymaking con preying on people who are desperate. More akin to faith healing rather than true science.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
Who are the 'they' that have proven his theories are 'fact'.

His theory is (from his website)


So how do stressful emotions cause a build up of toxins in the fluid around the brain? Where is his research to support this or any research to support this?

Where is the research to show normal drainage points in ME patients are congested?

Where is the research to shows that toxins cause ME? And which toxins would they be? And where is the research that shows what symptoms the toxins are causing?

I see his technique is trademarked and if you have the proper credentials you can get in on the franchise. So basically he is marketing detoxification based on no real research.

Another huge problem I have with this is his description of 'congested drainage points' in ME patients.
When lymph flow is impeded, it results in lymphedema which affects approximately 100 million people worldwide. Symptoms include swelling where the flow is impeded, pitting edema. ME patients don't generally show any signs and symptoms of impeded lymph flow. How is this possible? How is it that 100 million people with impeded lymph flow aren't suffering from brain toxicity.

The presence of any chemicals in the body doesn't mean they are doing harm.

There are a lot of products out there that describe the kidneys and liver as filter-like mechanisms where the catch and retain the 'toxins'. You need the product to clean out your kidneys and livers. The problem with this, it isn't how the liver and kidneys work.

The liver performs a series of chemical reactions to convert 'toxic' substances into ones that can be eliminated by the bile or in the kidneys. 'Toxins' don't accumulate in the liver because it is basically self-cleaning. The liver functions just fine unless you have some kind of liver disease. The kidneys function to excrete waste products into the urine. Substances the body needs are reabsorbed, waste is not. It is a huge problem for the kidneys to malfunction.

Perrin is selling detox too via massage. His statements show he is either profoundly ignorant of how the human body works or he is a clever salesman.

Perrin is also profoundly ignorant of how science works if he did say his theories have been proven as 'fact'.

Nothing about the Perrin is alluding 'detox' has been proven as 'fact'. In science, theory refers to a well-confirmed explanation of something that is made in a way consistent with scientific method. Hypotheses are testable and are descriptive accounts of how nature behaves under certain conditions.

His so-called 'theory' of lymph flow and toxins is not well-confirmed and certainly hasn't been formed using any scientific method. I think if his hypothesis about lymph flow and toxin were to be tested using proper scientific methodology, it would all fall apart rapidly.


Which part? I think a brain scan would reveal the mechanical details but not the rest of his speculative associations to toxins and ME.



That inspires no confidence in me. Why a 'Harley St' neurologist? I have not heard of a neurologist who would support massage to rid the body of toxins. What toxicology tests would they be using -- this would have to be a private venture because I don't see the NHS supporting this. Just what are they going to be testing for? Most of these tests reveal the presence of drugs/chemicals in the blood and/or urine which would not indicate their presence in the lymph fluid. Wouldn't you have to test lymph fluid directly?



Evidence. I have never seen this in any of the clinical criteria.


We do have something called the blood brain barrier that protects the brain from many chemicals. When toxins build up in the brain because they get across the BBB, it's called toxic encephalopathy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_encephalopathy

Lymphatic drainage is not the treatment for a buildup of toxic chemicals in the brain.

New research suggests sleep might be a factor -- https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-flush-out-toxins-during-sleep



More about the 'world-renowned' Professor Mathias --
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/professor-mathias-m-e.8942/

This merits a triple super ultra like button.
 
Last edited:

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Any trace or heavy metal that acts as an electrophile or sulfurophile in the cell will trigger a mitochondrial response that is similar to that of a viral infection, because metal electrophiles and replicating pathogens both divert and consume electrons. Likewise, a large number of molecules have been synthesized since the 1850s as dyes, pesticides, drugs, and industrial chemicals.

Many are polyaromatic and halogenated. These modern chemicals with conjugated ring systems, multiple double bonds, and delocalized π orbital electron clouds are highly electrophilic and will produce an electron steal within the cell that can also activate the CDR.

The CDR is a generic, but highly evolved response that often complicates more specific molecular effects that occur when a synthetic molecule binds to a receptor, or competes with and disrupts normal metabolic or hormone signaling.

Mixtures of chemical and biological threats can have synergistic effects, and the total load of danger triggers can influence the magnitude and form of the CDR.

When danger is detected, mitochondria alter cellular metabolism to help shield the cell from further injury. This is accomplished by stiffening cell membranes, activating the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS), and producing changes in many different pathways in intermediary metabolism that have the effect of limiting pathogen replication and limiting the spread of danger.

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1567724913002390
.

In response to the points above...

The blood brain barrier can become more permeable and toxins can definitely get into the brain, as in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420870/

Chelation is a valid technique and is recommended by the CDC in some situations. Here are 2 examples:

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=1&po=13

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter7.htm

There's a huge amount of misinformation on it as in the Wikipedia links provided above. And Harvard can churn out garbage as well as anyone else.

I've always wondered how these detox ingredients can differentiate between toxins vs. ingredients that are needed by the body.
They don't differentiate. That's why if one is chelating, nutrients needed by the body may become depleted with disastrous results if care is not taken to replenish them appropriately. This is why chelation got a bad reputation before this lesson was learned. But doctor's know this now, and it's very safe with proper medical supervision and nutrient replenishment.

The liver can retain toxins within the mitochondria, especially if it is stressed and overloaded trying to deal with too many toxins. The biochemical detox processes can only work so fast, one of the gating factors is having the necessary chemical cofactors (glutathione and many other things) to do the job, which many of us lack enough of .

This link explains how toxins can mimic mitochondrial diseases:

http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/mitochondrial-disease-and-toxins

And, in case you're in doubt, figure 2G has a vivid picture of arsenic in mitochondria...it's the giant black circle:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/figure/10.1177/0192623308327408?

Mitochondria that are filled with toxins can't make ATP properly. And, as far as I know lack of ATP causes fatigue.

It may not be the main factor causing CFS, but it's highly likely that all of us have some toxic load that isn't helping our health.
 
Messages
10,157
.

In response to the points above...

The blood brain barrier can become more permeable and toxins can definitely get into the brain, as in Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4420870/

Chelation is a valid technique and is recommended by the CDC in some situations. Here are 2 examples:

https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=1&po=13

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/publications/books/plpyc/chapter7.htm

There's a huge amount of misinformation on it as in the Wikipedia links provided above. And Harvard can churn out garbage as well as anyone else.


They don't differentiate. That's why if one is chelating, nutrients needed by the body may become depleted with disastrous results if care is not taken to replenish them appropriately. This is why chelation got a bad reputation before this lesson was learned. But doctor's know this now, and it's very safe with proper medical supervision and nutrient replenishment.

The liver can retain toxins within the mitochondria, especially if it is stressed and overloaded trying to deal with too many toxins. The biochemical detox processes can only work so fast, one of the gating factors is having the necessary chemical cofactors (glutathione and many other things) to do the job, which many of us lack enough of .

This link explains how toxins can mimic mitochondrial diseases:

http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/mitochondrial-disease-and-toxins

And, in case you're in doubt, figure 2G has a vivid picture of arsenic in mitochondria...it's the giant black circle:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/figure/10.1177/0192623308327408?

Mitochondria that are filled with toxins can't make ATP properly. And, as far as I know lack of ATP causes fatigue.

It may not be the main factor causing CFS, but it's highly likely that all of us have some toxic load that isn't helping our health.


What does this have to do with the Perrin Technique which is what this thread is about.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Yeah, but a wonky spine? That is so specific... not the most useful marker to create a big pool of potential clients...

Actually we all have wonky spines, especially if you go by the way the person was lying on the x-ray table slightly wonky cos they shuffled on sideways. All you need to stand with a wonky spine is one leg half an inch longer than the other, and that is pretty average. It is a great asset to the osteopathic people because they can always diagnose it when they want to (which is most of the time). It is a sign of intellectual bankruptcy I fear.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
This merits a triple super ultra like button.

Times two!

IMG_0233.JPG
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
Do you have any links to answer the questions I asked since you say you have all the answers. I can't wait to see his results -- probably more made up fairy stories -- his theory/hypothesis is outright quackery.

Y
Do you have any links to answer the questions I asked since you say you have all the answers. I can't wait to see his results -- probably more made up fairy stories -- his theory/hypothesis is outright quackery.

I have all the answers? hahahahahaha

What is wrong with people on here? So hostile. Those helping and trying to make a difference are met with scorn.

Perrins ideas are not quackery, you will see they will be proven. That does not mean you can cure CFS with massage. No one thing will cure it.
 

barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
What is wrong with people on here? So hostile. Those helping and trying to make a difference are met with scorn.

Perrins ideas are not quackery, you will see they will be proven. That does not mean you can cure CFS with massage. No one thing will cure it.
It looks to me that others are simply asking you to back up what you are saying. This would be true across the board for any theory and it's not a personal attack.

I'm sorry you take these comments as being hostile. TBH, a lot of us have been ripped off by alternative as well as regular medicine, so you may be picking up some of that skepticism as criticism.

There's also nothing wrong with stating something that you think may pan out but it's important to let others know this is your opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion but it's also important to keep in mind that opinions are different than facts.

Debating an issue can be a helpful learning experience as stated in my signature.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
It looks to me that others are simply asking you to back up what you are saying. This would be true across the board for any theory and it's not a personal attack.

I'm sorry you take these comments as being hostile. TBH, a lot of us have been ripped off by alternative as well as regular medicine, so you may be picking up some of that skepticism as criticism.

There's also nothing wrong with stating something that you think may pan out but it's important to let others know this is your opinion. Everyone has a right to an opinion but it's also important to keep in mind that opinions are different than facts.

Debating an issue can be a helpful learning experience as stated in my signature.

I am not saying anything. It is not my work. There is nothing for me to back up whatsoever.
 

keenly

Senior Member
Messages
814
Location
UK
So why post it?
For those who are interested in more detail:
http://club-physio.com/dr-raymond-n-perrin-do-phd/
http://www.robinkiashek.co.uk/london-osteopath-w1-n2-n10/perrin-technique-nhs-research/

The results of the NHS research which Ray Perrin funded himself are due out this summer.

There see, wasn't that easy.......

Why did somebody say KDM has an announcement to make?

Why post anything?

These forums have become very negative. Extremely sad. Those articles do not report the findings, thus futile. However they prove my point. The Author seems very happy on the second one. All I said is there are publications to come. What the hell do people want?
 
Messages
1,478
Why did somebody say KDM has an announcement to make?

Why post anything?

These forums have become very negative. Extremely sad. Those articles do not report the findings, thus futile. However they prove my point. The Author seems very happy on the second one. All I said is there are publications to come. What the hell do people want?
Saying things are negative because it differs from your point of view sounds a lot like the simon weasel school to me (I've kept the spell check in)
 
Messages
10,157
So why post it?
For those who are interested in more detail:
http://club-physio.com/dr-raymond-n-perrin-do-phd/
http://www.robinkiashek.co.uk/london-osteopath-w1-n2-n10/perrin-technique-nhs-research/

The results of the NHS research which Ray Perrin funded himself are due out this summer.

There see, wasn't that easy.......

upload_2017-4-9_19-19-48.png


So this research is about a way to diagnose ME/CFS. Of course Perrin would have to travel around teaching it to practitioners, follow the money. I don't see this study in any database for research. Just because Perrin is doing this, doesn't mean it is going to be taken seriously.

These forums have become very negative. Extremely sad. Those articles do not report the findings, thus futile. However they prove my point. The Author seems very happy on the second one. All I said is there are publications to come. What the hell do people want?

Just because you don't like the responses on this thread, doesn't make the forums negative.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
All of this lymph moving stuff is inadequately funded and researched. Period. I've worked with a number of therapists and discussed this with patients who are lobbying for more help on a national level in the US, and there's a limit to what's known.

It will be years before adequate research ties all of this together. It's very frustrating as a patient.

Having benefited from several so-called "alternative" treatments based on very sound scientific principles when conventional MDs who are specialists are at a loss to help, I'm very interested in any new ideas that surface. And have learned I could be dead before all the research is in, so I'd rather take a calculated gamble on something new if it makes sense.

It's valuable to see ideas presented and discussed with all the varied experiences and opinions. There's a lot of research done in stovepipes that's not yet synthesized into whole body of knowledge that works. There aren't any perfect answers, which is why we're all still sick.

Personally, I've found taking it all in, forming my own opinions and working with an open minded doctor to consider these new modalities can be quite helpful.

So, I'm very unhappy to see this type of discussion on this forum. The links provided were in no way conclusive. This whole discussion has expanded my view, so I'm thankful for the points everyone's raised, and don't find the criticism useful.

Continued participation is a good thing, not making people feel bad and driving them away.
 
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