B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Eastman]

@Munis

I'm not familiar with B12 injections, so hopefully someone else can answer your questions.

As a potential workaround, you might want to consider transdermal B12 oil, which is said to have high absorption rates and are easy to carry around. There is a thread on it here.

 

[Eastman]

Sorry for what I assume is a bit of an uninformed question. I started up methyl b12 and adeno b12. Had a definite response- neuropathy was way more active. Titrated up to about 4000 methyl and 3000 adeno over 2 months. Never really involved folate. Now, however, even small doses of folate (200) give me a sore throat and headache. Before b12, folate didn't do this. I understand this is a methylation issue and that there are different camps on how to approach this. It seems to me that I probably have to take a few days off or everything and start over with low doses of b12 and folate and titrate them together. Or, how much do I need the folate? I don't have massive fatigue and hundreds of symptoms. I have neuropathy. I realize the suggestion of doing just b12 and no folate must sound ridiculous. Thoughts from experienced people? Thank you.

Starting over with low doses of B12 and folate seems a good idea to me. The general rule is to keep folate lower than B12, although I myself don't follow that rule.

I believe there are a number of people on this forum who take B12 without folate.

 

[arewenearlythereyet]

upping the b12 without looking at folate may be a problem in that you
A might not have enough in your diet
B might not be processing it correctly in your body

I started on 400 mcg Methylfolate and 1000mcg of methylb12. I managed to find my level at 1200mcg methyl folate (split into 3 doses) and 10000 methyl b12 per day and 8400 mcg adenosyl b12 once per week. Getting this up to those levels took 6 months of slow change.

Doseage seems to be very specific to what the individual can tolerate and there doesn't seem to be a magic number for either. I would consider knocking back your b12 a bit before introducing the folate.

You might want to consider the other co factors as well if you haven't already. I transferred to the transdermal b12 oils which has given me a smoother ride than the sublinguals.

Good luck

 

[Johnmac]

Hi,

My B12 test reading was 150 . ( April 2016 ) . I am pure vegetarian (No milk, meat.egg etc.) for the last 10 years.
I am 40 yo. male.

Symptoms were feet numbness , unable to focus on anything and could not even get up from bed on most of the days , frequent falls since Oct 2015.
And bowel Incontinence since 2014.
Neuro Doctor suggested cyno Cbl last year , but I discontinued after 2 weeks.

Now again I have started Methyl Cbl after reading this forum this month , and am self injecting 4.5 mg a day of methyl Cbl .( SC injections).
Have found benefits by using methyl Cbl. , Pottasium and methyl folate .

I have some questions regarding B12 injections.

1. How do you carry so many injections when travelling abroad ?

2. How do you wrap them in a foil paper ? (to protect from light )

Thanks.

I presume you've been given the rave about vegetarianism & B12 deficiency.

I found sublingual and injections fairly inconvenient, so switched to transdermal oils, which have been easier to administer, deliver a much bigger dose than sublingual, and also a smoother dose - it seeps in over 8 hours..

 

[SMPN]

Starting over with low doses of B12 and folate seems a good idea to me. The general rule is to keep folate lower than B12, although I myself don't follow that rule.

I believe there are a number of people on this forum who take B12 without folate.

Thanks, Eastman. It appears that the b12 is way more important for me because this is a neuropathy issue and not an ME/CFS issue. But maybe folate is essential for the methyl b12 to really do it's job. I'll keep trying to add it in.

 

[Eastman]

Yes, folate is essential for mB12 to do its job. But some people have enough from diet or recycle it well so they may not need to supplement it.

 

[Knockknock]

Honestly that kind of sucks to hear that if I'd just kept on I might have turned around on B12. I did try it twice with Cheney though. Still its something to keep in mind. Thanks for the illuminating story.

Maybe you were not using the right one, or maybe you need other supplements to make more effective.
There is evidence that b12 has alot of neurological benefics as well as many others, inhibit viruses, great scavenger to detox heavy metals, free radicals.
Maybe the key is to use the right one , right way and doze.

 

[Knockknock]

Sorry for what I assume is a bit of an uninformed question. I started up methyl b12 and adeno b12. Had a definite response- neuropathy was way more active. Titrated up to about 4000 methyl and 3000 adeno over 2 months. Never really involved folate. Now, however, even small doses of folate (200) give me a sore throat and headache. Before b12, folate didn't do this. I understand this is a methylation issue and that there are different camps on how to approach this. It seems to me that I probably have to take a few days off or everything and start over with low doses of b12 and folate and titrate them together. Or, how much do I need the folate? I don't have massive fatigue and hundreds of symptoms. I have neuropathy. I realize the suggestion of doing just b12 and no folate must sound ridiculous. Thoughts from experienced people? Thank you.

So wird, i thought that thethyl b12 was good for neuropathy and nerve repair, even many Ms doctors use it at high injectable doses.

I may be wrong, but im thinking if. Readin a thread or some were else that at first its hard or more painfull them later if you go thru you will get the benefit

 

[Learner1]

So wird, i thought that thethyl b12 was good for neuropathy and nerve repair, even many Ms doctors use it at high injectable doses.

I may be wrong, but im thinking if. Readin a thread or some were else that at first its hard or more painfull them later if you go thru you will get the benefit

If it's hard or painful, you likely don't have the right mix of nutrients for you.

It could be you have the wrong form of B12 or you may need more than one.

It could be you're missing a cofactor, like magnesium. potassium, 5-MTHF, B6, B2, TMG, methionine, SAMe, or even ATP

It could be you're mobilizing a toxin, like mercury, arsenic, lead, etc., which can produce all sorts of symptoms.

It might be useful to do a Genova Diagnostics NutrEval test, a HDRI methylation panel, and/or a 23andme test , if you haven't done them already.

Having good info to tweak your protocol beats a guessing game, in my experience..

Best wishes...

 

[Knockknock]

Thanks

 

[Pheenix997]

Sorry for jumping in randomly here without an introduction. I have a question. Is sleepiness, headache, and fatigue a common reaction from Methylb12? The fatigue hit me like a truck today. I'm currently taking 2 mg only. Does this mean I should stop or push through it? I also take 1 mg L-mtfh, and a slew of co-factors, vitamins, minerals, etc. as augmenting factors to ensure methylation works.

BTW, I got interested in all this because my response to TMG was incredible: felt like my brain turned on for the first time, like a light switch. I just felt more turned on and in tune and alert with everything, and things were generally way less difficult. I spoke more clearly, my vision was much sharper (as opposed to cloudy/fuzzy), etc. So then I came across this forum and decided to add in the B12 and methylfolate hoping for further improvements.....

 

[Learner1]

Though it seems to be giving you symptoms, methylB12 actually fixes my headache, fatigue, and sleepiness, especially in large doses. I've had similar positive experiences as you have with TMG (but SAMe makes me edgy and irritable where it helps others).

The problem with randomly taking these and 5-MTHF is that they're part of the process of methylation, an intricate process involving many steps and a bunch of other cofactors.

Randomly dropping these things into your protocol at random doses can have unintended consequences, like mobilizing toxins that you are missing other ingredients to get rid of. It can also dramatically affect your mood.

Best to get tested, see what you're short of, and supplement accordingly, preferably under a knowledgeable doctor's supervision, or at least with some education about methylation under your belt.

Reading through all the info in this thread would be helpful, too. You may need a certain form or forms of B12 and other cofactors like B2, B6, magnesium, potassium, or methionine.

And a word of caution...you want to have the right amount of folate for your situation... too much or too little can cause cancer... The other Bs are more forgiving, but for folate, more is not better.

 

[Pheenix997]

Best to get tested, see what you're short of, and supplement accordingly, preferably under a knowledgeable doctor's supervision, or at least with some education about methylation under your belt.

Thanks for your reply .

Here's what I take as augmenting factors: vitamin C, D3, E, B6, K2, electrolytes every morning (containing magnesium, manganese, and potassium), Omega 3's, turmeric, Milk Thistle, calcium, chromium, Zinc, TMG, and Sam-E.

What do you mean test - for vitamin/mineral levels? I guess I could do that.

That methylb12 made me sleep 13 hours last night. Luckily I went to bed early and didn't start work 'till later, but my God, Melatonin doesn't even knock me out like that...

 

[Learner1]

No 5-MTHF, B2, B1, molybdenum or taurine? They may help. You may need methionine, SAMe, or TMG, too.

Taking any of the above or what you're currently taking can have unintended consequences if you are missing or run out of cofactors.

A Genova Diagnostics NutrEval with Amino Acids and Vitamin D test can give you a lot of insight. You can see a sample test on their website. Make sure to do the PrePay prigram, which is under $200 and a great value. And follow all the directions to the letter.

A Health Diagnostics Methylation Panel could be useful too.

You may be mobilizing something toxic if you're reacting like that to MB12. A Doctors Data provoked urine heavy metals test might be useful.

You could also have a methylation block, some oddball genetic setup, etc.

But getting some testing done under the supervision of a knowledgeable functional medicine doctor would be quite helpful.

 

[Pheenix997]

Thanks @Learner1. I did a hair mineral analysis last year and tested high in Aluminum (12.5 ppm and range was 0-12) and moderately high arsenic. Lead, mercury, and others were relatively low, although they were still traces. I've never done a formal detox before. Maybe it's the aluminum being excreted?

I'm reacting, much, much better to the B12 now. No more sleepiness. It's actually quite energizing. However I don't know if it's that or the TMG/ SAM-e. I'm currently at 1000 mcg looking to titrate.

regarding Methylfolate, I have 5-MTFH 1000 mcg. What's a good ratio to have of that with b12? I haven't started taking it yet cause my b12 is still low. Should I start?

Thanks!

 

[Learner1]

Thanks @Learner1. I did a hair mineral analysis last year and tested high in Aluminum (12.5 ppm and range was 0-12) and moderately high arsenic. Lead, mercury, and others were relatively low, although they were still traces. I've never done a formal detox before. Maybe it's the aluminum being excreted?

Arsenic is the #1 worst toxin and can seriously impact ATP production, causing profound fatigue. Worth getting rid of...

As we detox, metals aren't all excreted together, there tends to be a priority of what gets excreted in which order.

You may not see all the toxins you have, they may be sequestered in different tissues, as well as deep in your mitochondria, and get released at different rates and through different mechanisms.

I had little lead showing up for 5 years, but now, because I've gotten rid of other metals, and we're getting stuff out of my mitochondria, the lead is showing up on my tests and I'm having lead toxicity symptoms as I'm getting rid of it.

A hair mineral analysis will give different results than a provoked urine test. The hair test shows what's excreted only in hair over time.

With the urine test, you're usually given a chelating agent, EDTA, DMSA, and/or DMPS, which provokes your body into dumping the toxins. So, you can see if the chelating agent will work, and then measure progress over time. Unfortunately, it doesn't measure how toxic you are, just how much is coming out, which ideally, you want to get down toward 0.

Under the care of an excellent naturopath, I've been chelating on and off over the past 6 years, first mercury, then platinum, then arsenic, then lead. I still have aluminum, which hasn't budged much yet.

All the happy detox solutions all over the web do little for me.

It's taken chelating with DMSA, DMPS, EDTA, and PolyMVA at different times, depending on what we were going after, ALONG WITH robust oral and IV nutritional support, with methylation and transsulfuration pathway nutrients, activated charcoal, a high fiber diet, and a lot of curcumin.

As for the methylation nutrients, it sounds promising that you're doing better with the MB12. Once you start using it, you'll probably start pulling folate out of your folate cycle.

When this happens to me, I start to feel edgy and depressed. That's when I start taking MTHF. I already take a B complex and multivitamin with some (600mcg) but then add 1mg. But I'm taking closer to 10mg of B12 daily, which would be an 8-1 ratio.

But, the ratio would depend on your genes and environmental factors. Some people need a much higher ratio of folate to B12 and vice versa. Knowing your genes and testing methylation nutrients would be useful. Too much folate (or too little) can be very bad.

You'll need more if you're chelating, which is not an easy process and will stress your methylation and glutathione production.

I'd highly recommend having a professional help you. You can make yourself quite ill doing this yourself.

 

[Pheenix997]

Well I'm taking a B-complex now twice a day, which as w400mcg methylfolate, plus I take another daily 1000mcg L-Methylfolate supplement (which I may discontinue as I now may get what I need strictly through the B-complex). So I don't think folate is an issue.

Did you get improvements in symptoms from the chelation? If so, what kinds? Thanks for your advice, I'm definitely going to seek out a Naturopath .

 

[Learner1]

Well I'm taking a B-complex now twice a day, which as w400mcg methylfolate, plus I take another daily 1000mcg L-Methylfolate supplement (which I may discontinue as I now may get what I need strictly through the B-complex). So I don't think folate is an issue.

Did you get improvements in symptoms from the chelation? If so, what kinds? Thanks for your advice, I'm definitely going to seek out a Naturopath .

That sounds like plenty of folate for most people. Some may need more due to genetics, but if you feel fine, stay on course for now. Do plan on some nutrient testing in the future, as you could become short of cofactors you need.

Yes, chelation helped me tremendously.

I've had symptoms of toxicity from each metal in turn over time. During chelation, some symptoms got worse and had to be managed, like increased fatigue, increased fatigue, elevated blood pressure, kidney and liver pain, and unpleasant bowel movements.

At all times, I was in an excellent doctor's care. I've gained the utmost respect for this complex process and its benefits.

I had a lot of toxicity as I don't detox well due to an unfortunate group of methylation genes, so it took a lot to get the toxins moving and keep them moving out of my body. It's likely easier for most people.

My kidneys and liver were stressed, but they rebounded and no permanent damage was done. The other toxicity symptoms gradually resolved, with less fatigue, brain fog, my arsenic rash went away, and blood pressure normalized.

What you don't want is to start mobilizing toxins and have them end up somewhere worse, like moving from belly fat to your brain, for example. That's the danger with some of these fad detoxes you see in magazines are on the Internet.

It's a worthwhile process as a part of regaining our health. It takes commitment and persistence, though, and you can expect the process to take years.

Best of luck finding a good naturopathic or functional medicine doctor to help you.

 

[Pheenix997]

Thank you I will update here once I find a doctor to work with.

I've been getting random eye twitches in my right eye since I've started on this regimine. The only cause I could find online related to vitamin deficiencies however. I also read high levels of heavy metals in the blood could also cause. Since I'm taking sufficient amount of a bunch of vitamims/minerals, I'm leaning toward thinking the twitching is a result of chelation. Hmm..

 

[Learner1]

Everyone is toxic, so that's a very likely guess...