Lecithin intolerance?

[flitza]

Hey all,

I'm new to this forum and to the SMP. I started CB12 shots a couple of weeks ago to very good effect with regard to neurological issues and started to investigate SMP because of that. Decided to try Rich's SMP. So far only continued B12 (planning to switch to the HB12 he recommends) and have taken 1 1200mg Now Sunflower Lecithin, twice separated by 2 days. The lecithin completely knocked me for a loop. Slept soundly and awoke during the night with that weird, swollen head feeling, feeling nauseated and quite drugged or toxic. That happened both nights. Last night the symptoms lasted well into the day. Not the nausea, but heavy head and fatigue. Just feeling sick. I have to add that a couple of hours after taking the dose yesterday, I experienced a wonderful neurological calm, such as I have not had in years.

I'm not sure if this is an idosyncratic reaction to the lecithin (and I should stay away from it-I do get a lot in my diet) or detox or something else. I started Equilibrant 2 months ago and am ramping up VERY slowly, now at ½ Tab per day.

Anybody else had a similar experience with lecithin?

 

[NotThisGuy]

yeah, i know i need lecithine but can't tolerate it.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tylcholine-at-low-cost-naturally.46037/page-6

Have a look into this thread.



I'm still trying to figure out why I can't tolerate it, so far my best guess is lack of phosphatidylserine and folate/folinic acid.
But too weak and scared right know to try it.

 

[flitza]

Hi Not this Guy! Thanks for answering so quickly. Maybe it's a folate issue. I'm going to try a bit of the All-in-one multivitamin and then, eventually get to the folate/folinic acid.
BTW, Germany? I lived there for 23 years until 2 years ago. Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

 

[NotThisGuy]

Selbstverständlich spreche ich deutsch.
Born and raised here.

What also helped me is using micro-doses of cdp choline (25mg) instead of whole lecithine.
I won't get that much of a negative reaction, but i still get that calming effect you described.
Maybe it's really about detox since your symptoms remind me of my own when my liver is overloaded.

I can't shake off the feeling, that my heavy negative reaction got something to do with inositole.
But nothing more than speculation right now.

 

[flitza]

I may try that cdp choline. As horrible as that 'toxic' feeling is and scares me, I'd really like to get that calmed mind feeling again. Do you have a source for the choline? Aus welchen Gegend bist Du?

 

[NotThisGuy]

Hi,
i use this one:

http://eu.iherb.com/pr/Jarrow-Formu...ngcode=de-DE&gclid=CI-vmJStk9ICFQONGwodfZULxg

In the POTS Thread they recommend AGP choline, but I have a lot of allergies and I'm scared I won't tolerate the soy.
I really recommend to read the posts from lolinda in this thread.
She also uses as co-factor vinegar (for acetyl-carnitine) and micro-dose vitamin B5.


Ich komme aus der Mitte Deutschlands. Falls ich fragen darf: wo warst du hier und warum bist du weggegangen?

 

[flitza]

Vielen Dank. Ich bin wieder in DE im März so dass ich das Jarrow holen kann.
Ich wohnte die letzen 17 Jahren in Neustadt an der Weinstraße.
Bin nach California gezogen weil meine Kinder hier waren. Meine Tochter ist wieder nach DE (aber nur 2 Jahre lang) gezogen um dort ein Master zu machen.
Bitte verzeihe mein Deutsch. Es ist 2 Jahre hier und das Schreiben war nie meine Stärke.

 

[NotThisGuy]

No need to be sorry, your german is excellent !
Better get the jarrow in USA. The link is iHerb EU, but they ship from USA and the toll would just confiscate it.

Wie klein doch die Welt ist... Weinstraße ist ein Katzensprung von Franfkurt entfernt. Als ich noch ein Kind war sind wir immer nach Haßloch in den HolidayPark gefahren
Worin macht deine Tochter denn ihren Master? Ich wünschte ich wäre gesund genug, um wieder an die Uni zu gehen

 

[Richard7]

If it is a problem with the lecithin itself I have no relevant knowledge.

But it might be worth opening the capsules and having a smell. At some point in the past I read that it was better to buy the powder or liquid so that you could smell if the lecithin had become rancid (oxidised). Which is what I now do.

I know I had some sunflower lecithin capsules that I opened to add to a smoothy and they were vile, really rancid.

 

[flitza]

Cool. Werde ich denn bald bestellen.
Ja, ich habe eigentlich viel Zeit während meine letzten 2 J in DE in FFT gebracht.
Meine Tochter studiert an der LMU.
Gebe nicht auf. Bald kommt viele neue Erkenntnisse und Behandlung. Da bin ich sicher.
Aber solltest Du nicht versuchen zu schlafen?

 

[flitza]

If it is a problem with the lecithin itself I have no relevant knowledge.

But it might be worth opening the capsules and having a smell. At some point in the past I read that it was better to buy the powder or liquid so that you could smell if the lecithin had become rancid (oxidised). Which is what I now do.

I know I had some sunflower lecithin capsules that I opened to add to a smoothy and they were vile, really rancid.

Thanks so much for the advice Richard. I'll have to do that. They should be fresh... but you never know. Before I discard them I will take a whiff.

 

[NotThisGuy]

Cool. Werde ich denn bald bestellen.
Ja, ich habe eigentlich viel Zeit während meine letzten 2 J in DE in FFT gebracht.
Meine Tochter studiert an der LMU.
Gebe nicht auf. Bald kommt viele neue Erkenntnisse und Behandlung. Da bin ich sicher.
Aber solltest Du nicht versuchen zu schlafen?

man merkt du bist eine Mutter
Leider ist mein Schlafrythmus eine einzige Katastrophe. Der reinste Wanderzirkus.
Ich bin durchaus optimistisch, da ich zum Glück sehr gut auf Nahrungsergänzungsmittel anspreche. Ich hab nur noch nicht die richtige Kombination gefunden, dank lolinda bin ich aber gefühlt nah dran.
Es hat etwas mit Acetylcholin zu tun.

 

[flitza]

Ich muss mal 'lolinda' nachschauen.

 

[Chezboo]

@flitza I had a horrendous time with Lecithin. It gave me severe insomnia, and swings between massive adrenaline rushes to extreme drowsiness (but still not much sleep). Initially even had bouts of anxiety with racing random incomplete thoughts. It was a very weird and extremely unpleasant experience. Even so I persisted with it for 20 days. I tried it again a few months later when I had to go out to a family thing to keep me awake (of course this was pretty stupid, was thinking of the adrenaline rushes) and it did keep me awake, that night and the next few nights but not especially at the event of course! Also gave me the bizarre anxiety thing again which is not normal for me.

All this surprised me as I rarely have a reaction to supplements (either good or bad). I did a search here and didn’t find much on it, certainly not this reaction. It seems we’ve both had idiosyncratic albeit different reactions to Lecithin. I wish I knew why!

Btw, I supplement with methyl B12, folate and phosphatidylserine (at the time) among about a million other things.

 

[NotThisGuy]

@flitza I had a horrendous time with Lecithin. It gave me severe insomnia, and swings between massive adrenaline rushes to extreme drowsiness (but still not much sleep). Initially even had bouts of anxiety with racing random incomplete thoughts. It was a very weird and extremely unpleasant experience. Even so I persisted with it for 20 days. I tried it again a few months later when I had to go out to a family thing to keep me awake (of course this was pretty stupid, was thinking of the adrenaline rushes) and it did keep me awake, that night and the next few nights but not especially at the event of course! Also gave me the bizarre anxiety thing again which is not normal for me.

All this surprised me as I rarely have a reaction to supplements (either good or bad). I did a search here and didn’t find much on it, certainly not this reaction. It seems we’ve both had idiosyncratic albeit different reactions to Lecithin. I wish I knew why!

Btw, I supplement with methyl B12, folate and phosphatidylserine (at the time) among about a million other things.

Thats similiar to what i experienced on lecithine.
I googled it and found some others who suffered the same way.
A few said it has something to do with insuline resistance which got worse due the inositole.
Another source said it depleted androgens. The source was just a user comment on a website, so no really trustworthy source.

Good to know you took folate and serine.... that was my best guess so far.

Maybe we need adrenal hormones?
My next try would've been pregnenolone, but it also has as a side effect anxiety.

Or maybe it's more likely that lecithine boosts adrenals?
Do you also take any meds for the thyroid?
Since I have minor hypothyroid (no meds) I'm asking myself if thats why I cant tolerate lecithine.

 

[Chezboo]

@NotThisGuy

Thanks for the response, all very interesting and nice to finally find someone who has had a similar seemingly somewhat unusual experience with lecithin!

I was wondering if Lecithin boosted adrenals or had some role to play (hence my ‘adrenaline’ rushes on it), can’t remember what I found on this but nothing stood out. I think I got confused with flimsy but contradictory information I found on lecithin and its effects.I am prone to high surges of cortisol unlike many with ME, so was wondering if it somehow stimulated the adrenals but in a dysfunctional/random way if somehow possible.

I discovered around the time I took the lecithin that my DHEA levels were on the floor but had been for years (despite often high cortisol), so I started on 20mg DHEA tablets which helped after the start up reaction but haven’t helped enough (the lecithin reaction was separate to the DHEA start up). On pregnenolone, I have read of many people taking it and so wanted to research that a little and see where it took me. Haven’t got around to it yet.

Interesting about the insulin resistance you touched on. I’ve often wondered about this as I do have to eat all the time or become irritable, lack concentration, shaky, weak and generally feel even more dreadful than usual. You also mention serine, the form I took at the time had no perceivable effect (like most things!)

I’ve been wondering about the thyroid. I’ve only ever managed to swing the basic thyroid tests from my crappy Drs. This time I convinced one to order robust thyroid testing but am waiting on results although I suspect they will come back normal, at least it’s something to cross of the list I guess.

Seems like there a few things I can investigate for now, thanks for your reply!

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another source said it depleted androgens.

My impression from taking choline is that it accelerates estrogen breakdown (having thus a very detrimental effect in me). It could be doing the same to androgens, but I didn't take it long engough to evaluate that.

 

[NotThisGuy]

@Chezboo
and @all

I did make a few tests for my adrenals:
Testosterone: 1,17 low
Androstendione : 0,4 low

So indeed whatever source claimed that inositole depletes androstendione was right.
Thats the reason for my lecithine intolerance.

DHEA-S : 325,4 ok

DHEA is just fine, but im male.

Low testosterone induces insulin resistance, so although some sources claim inositole can help with insulin resistence I don't think thats correct for people with low androstendione.

 

[Carnation4000]

Hey all,

I'm new to this forum and to the SMP. I started CB12 shots a couple of weeks ago to very good effect with regard to neurological issues and started to investigate SMP because of that. Decided to try Rich's SMP. So far only continued B12 (planning to switch to the HB12 he recommends) and have taken 1 1200mg Now Sunflower Lecithin, twice separated by 2 days. The lecithin completely knocked me for a loop. Slept soundly and awoke during the night with that weird, swollen head feeling, feeling nauseated and quite drugged or toxic. That happened both nights. Last night the symptoms lasted well into the day. Not the nausea, but heavy head and fatigue. Just feeling sick. I have to add that a couple of hours after taking the dose yesterday, I experienced a wonderful neurological calm, such as I have not had in years.

I'm not sure if this is an idosyncratic reaction to the lecithin (and I should stay away from it-I do get a lot in my diet) or detox or something else. I started Equilibrant 2 months ago and am ramping up VERY slowly, now at ½ Tab per day.

Anybody else had a similar experience with lecithin?

I'm new to the forum too and recently had a very similar reaction to lecithin. After watching a presentation that said that most MTHFRs need lecithin, I decided to try it. I just felt exhausted and also had the "swollen head feeling" you mention. I had to stop with if after a few days. Will say that the first day was great, and I slept really well. Then I started feeling like I would never be able to wake up......oh well.

I wonder about the insulin resistance connection. That's an issue for me so wonder if there is a connection.

 

[flitza]

I'm new to the forum too and recently had a very similar reaction to lecithin. After watching a presentation that said that most MTHFRs need lecithin, I decided to try it. I just felt exhausted and also had the "swollen head feeling" you mention. I had to stop with if after a few days. Will say that the first day was great, and I slept really well. Then I started feeling like I would never be able to wake up......oh well.

I wonder about the insulin resistance connection. That's an issue for me so wonder if there is a connection.

I find it interesting that you mention insulin resistance. I think I got that from NAG. It helped with agitation/anxiety but made my tremor (essential) WAY worse. Especially when I hadn't eaten. Perhaps a bit off topic, not sure.