Hi there,
I have overmethylation with copper overload and have recently started with zinc. I've heard that taking too much zinc can absolutely cause a copper dump (so can manganese, and a few other nutrients) and worsen anxiety and other nervous system symptoms - so it is probably best to back down a bit if you notice that is happening. I started really slowly and gradually with the zinc to avoid this kind of problem.
Hi
@Vanessa,
I think you're spot-on about the zinc-copper balance. Sorry you have copper overload. On the other side, high zinc dosages bind with something in the intestines and reduce absorption of copper. Interestingly the opposite is not the case: high copper intake does
not reduce absorption of zinc. I read just this morning on the Linus Pauling website that even 50 mg per day over a few weeks can cause copper deficiencies in many people.
Reading between the lines, it seems like most people
can take more zinc, IF they take more copper - so you actually
absorb enough of the copper. I now take 75 mg of zinc per day, so that may be why I need 10 mg or more much to correct the apparent deficiency.
I also believe copper toxicity is real but rare,
unless you either have a genetic condition that would have been obvious at a young age, or you get a really huge amount of it from corroded copper pipes carrying your drinking water or that kind of thing.
But I also think if you don't get enough zinc in your diet, that makes it more likely that copper supplementation can result in toxicity ... and we're all different in millions of ways.
I started with the zinc first, which is partly why I think I need a relatively high dose of copper now. The other reason is Fredd's "refeeding syndrome": when the body starts repairing itself, it needs more than normal of EVERYTHING. Copper (and potassium) just happened to be the most important ones for me now (although I think those two in particular, and one person mentioned phosphorus, are often the ones that need to be addressed the most if you're taking Freddd's other recommended basics).
....
Right now I personally no longer believe in over-methylation. I think what people assume is over-methylation is "start-up" or "donut hole or paradoxically-induced deficiency" symptoms, or that as-yet unexplained anxiety many people get when starting l-carnitine. And there are ways to get through all of that - at least for many.
But that in no way means I think I'm
sure that people who believe in over-methylation are wrong. There's just
so much we don't really know! There are good arguments on both sides.
@Tigger: I
think I did the link to a member thing!
Thanks for "paging" Freddd. I'm hoping he is interested in my very positive experience with copper... and doesn't tell me I've misunderstood his words and my suggestions will kill people or something ;-P
I'm just so grateful I found his advice a couple years ago and finally got my "aha!" moment of understanding recently.
Very grateful he shared about his copper deficiency too, so I get to keep my teeth
It would be emotionally difficult for me to have so many people look up to me and then have something like that happen... but this is all so new, mistakes are inevitable. And nobody's better at learning from them than he is, IMO.
@Freddd, people love you!
I'm not sure it has anything to do with methylation issues. I think I just have some childhood trauma/adverse events in my life that were tied to hostile social situations. So my brain seems to interpret all social situations as inherently threatening.
I think this was addressed to Tigger, but I'll add that that's
exactly my experience: I believe my brain was "wired" to be hyper-vigilant because
first my mom went through an incredibly stressful series of events while pregnant with me, including somebody trying to run her over with his car because she found out he was a con-man and was going to turn him into the police! (Instead he managed to run off with the evidence, change his name, and leave town with all the money from their business partnership. She was 25 when this happened, and also going to be a single mom with no support from her parents for having the child she wanted (me) but they didn't think was a good idea. That was only at the time of course, they loved me when they saw me
- the point is just the stress/anxiety/depression and how we know now that it epigenetically affects the fetus's brain and body in a really bad way).
Then I had a 5 or so year period starting around age 6 when I was THE kid
everybody bullied, even the teachers sometimes. I had a lot of behavioral problems, but it's amazing how much that changed me from a pretty happy kid into somebody who 20 years later still has to remind himself of things like "many people really
do like you!".
I think we can work on these things but I'm not sure we can "cure" them 100% (it's one thing cognitive behavioral therapy
is quite helpful with, even done on your own from a good self-help book. I DO realize it's often used in terrible ways against people with chronic illnesses because so many psychologists don't believe there is a physical cause for CFS, fibromyalgia, etc. but that's a flaw in
execution, not a flaw in the
concept when used for the real psychological challenges we face, IMO)..
I did use 23andme and Genetic Genie. It was incredibly informational and interesting to get the results. Of course, they are just tendencies but certainly help point you in the right direction. I paid $100 a few years ago but I think the price has since gone up to $200. Still worth it in my opinion..
Thanks! Good to know.
Also, what are the main symptoms/issues that you've dealt with that are hopefully being resolved via methylation support/high dose folate/b12's? How intense and how long did start-up last for you? I worked my way up over a matter of months to 24 mg folate, 1 g LCF, 20 mg mb12, 8.6 mg ab12 and supports but found myself getting very agitated, brain fog, hyper-sensitive responses, etc. I wasn't sure at this point if it was still paradoxical folate deficiency or I just didn't need that much.
Well, as usual it's complicated because of the "try everything at once" approach. So I may have been doing it wrong the first couple years, when I got
some gains (mostly better lab results) but I kept seeming to get start up again and again. Now I'm pretty sure that was because I had whey protein sometimes and N-Acetyl-Cysteine in a supplement I took for my eyes ... every day (thought a small amount was OK but apparently it's really not).
I just didn't realize how easy it is for 260 mg of that stuff to wash the tiny amount of B-12 out of my serum.
Also, knowing about copper earlier and really starting with as few "non-protocol" things as I could and then re-adding them one at a time would have probably sped things up.
So these are some of the symptoms that have improved:
- high MCV (102. Lab range is 80-100 but Freddd says the range used to go to 92 and they raised it to 100 because we're all getting sicker and doctors were ignoring the "high" results because half of their patients were getting them! Last time I checked it was down to 93. That was before I discovered the copper - and also before I drank a bunch of protein water and messed everything up.
- also high MCH (mean hemoglobin concentration) 35 (range: 27-33)
Those had been high for some time. I also had low total protein, which has also gotten into the normal range. But I don't know if I can credit methylation or just eating more protein.
- My platelet counts were also always just barely in the normal range for years (184 & 200) and now they seem to be creeping up (250 last time). I think that's related to the low blood volume many of us have, and it and the higher protein could be the result of the methylation helping the body make enough cells.
- Low-normal white blood cells (hoping this will improve next time I go in) and low natural killer cell activity (too expensive to test again soon)
- very low ferritin (7 or 12) despite normal other iron measures that kept coming back down if I stopped supplementing with a lot of iron, even though I'm a male and don't have bleeding issues (that last has been checked, twice. The inability to increase ferritin may very well be related to the copper deficiency - so not directly helped by methylation.. Plus I don't even know if it's gone up yet. I'm just assuming it will, based on what I've read about Cu and Fe)
Subjective random stuff:
- Just yesterday my ex- told me he thought my arms looked more muscular. I haven't been able to work out yet, but I can carry a heavy suitcase for short distances now without being sore and sometimes almost flu-like for days afterwards (PEM, I guess we call it). I'm thinking: do I dare start doing my own vacuuming again??? Haha.
- And I believe I've lost some water weight. My face doesn't look as puffy and fat as it did. People who wouldn't tell a white lie just to be nice have confirmed.
- I seem to have regained my ability to drink (even a lot) of alcohol again - confirmed last night(!). Woo-hoo!
The
biggest symptoms were:
- fatigue: I'm not perfect but it's seems to be improving
- fibromyalgia: now the painkillers actually WORK, and I've even reduced my dose a bit.
- diarrhea: recently gotten WAY better, if I just take enough methyl-folate (always with some B-12 to make sure my cells can hold onto it) it's better (by far!) than Imodium. I had been desperate and would take 16 at a time and still have trouble. One day after taking a lot of folate and the B-12s, overnight I got constipated (like, first time EVER) - so I increased potassium a lot & magnesium a little until I found the balance.
- anxiety got way better almost like magic after a couple days of 10 mg of copper and continuing enough potassium. Either the neurochemical issues are getting better by themselves, or at least my meds are working better.
- mild depression seems to be lifting
One tip that might work for others: I did get the dreaded extra anxiety when I started the l-carnitine fumarate. It was
bad. But I read a couple posts from people who "pushed through it" and decided to try that, and after 2-3 days (which admittedly felt awful to live through) I couldn't tell that I had taken it anymore.
Freddd says you don't really notice it once you're getting enough and over the anxiety some have - it's just if you
stop taking it, then you'll notice the anxiety if you start it again (and old low-ATP symptoms might gradually come back if you stop getting enough). I think you don't notice it physically after a dose because it mainly helps with muscle, and things that change relatively slowly.
About
START-UP (the scary part):
I can tell you that while I still take a lot, I'm definitely, finally needing significantly less potassium. Like I've gone from at least 10 grams a day to 4-5. It happened suddenly. I just stopped getting the muscle twitches and rapid heart rate - which are my personal tell-tale signs - and then can skip a dose above my baseline amount and be fine.
Also, suddenly I can tolerate CoQ10 without it creating a massive need for potassium, which it did for a long time.
TIMING: If we assume I "reset" and started from zero when I drank a lot of glutathione pre-cursors for several days, and that flushed the B12 out of my serum (which then means the cells can't hold onto the folate) and gave me damage from severe deficiencies all over again, then I can pinpoint the beginning of start-up to approximately June 20th.
I may just be in a lull, but it's really nice. So for me, it seems to have taken 6-7 weeks.
If I were in your place, my intuition would be that either you do need even more potassium and folate* (for now) - or in any case, that reducing them might save some money but wouldn't get you closer to the goalpost - or that you need to find out what the "next most-limiting factor" is, like it turned out to be copper for me, and maybe lecithin for both the choline and the phosphorus in it, and maybe boron and other trace minerals.
(*Based on another post, I think Vanessa might disagree, but I wonder if the idea that folate is
bad for under-methylators comes from studying *folic acid* or (even folinic acid), which do indeed gunk-up methylation in many people...It's the same problem if you're told "too much B12 can damage your nerves". Well WHICH B12? Cyanocobalamin sure can! And that's the one they tested... I don't think methyl- or adenosyl- will do that).
It's always a good idea to make sure you're really doing the whole thing correctly. It's pretty well-thought out IMHO. And I'm pretty sure that finding out how much you need of "the basics" is just as important as getting enough of the Deadlock Quartet supplements - because otherwise your body will be missing the fuel it needs to
finish the repairs you've started, and things will kind of stall out in a frustrating way until you get the right parts for the engine.
I also have a hypothesis that most of us need higher than normal amounts of lots of things in the beginning, but as long as we avoid folic acid and cyanocobalamin - and glutathione precursors - eventually we'll be able to reduce a lot of these supports if we eat a healthy diet. A big exception is the people who can't tolerate veggie folates. Then I guess they could eat liver (yuck) but otherwise they need the methylfolate for life.
We also might just have so much built up damage from a lifetime of exposure to cyano-B12 and folic acid that we'll always need SOME support from supplements. Just not as much as during "start-up" and "re-feeding syndrome" (maybe two ways of saying the same thing?).
Have you thought about trying one day of 10 mg of copper? I apologize in advance if you keel over dead, but it might be the only way you'll ever find out if that's what's missing right now because it seems to also have the paradoxical deficiency problem when you start correcting with low doses.. Freddd's serum copper went DOWN on 10-15 mg per day. But I think his deficiency was worse due to long-term high dose zinc supplementation.
Or you could just try 4 mg at one time as I did and see if that makes you feel better. But 10 mg in divided doses for a few days would be the best test. Try to not change too much else at the same time (unless it directly conflicts with Freddd's general advice).
Of course I'm not a doctor, so please take everything I write as "that's what
Matt would do".
Whew, that was long!