PQQ

[Catjbro]

has anyone tried PQQ, or NADH?

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

PQQ makes me more alert, but can cause insomnia if I take it after 12 noon. Other people here have said it felt like they were on speed. 5mg is adequate for me.

I took NADH a long time ago and it had no effect on me.

 

[Catjbro]

I took NADH a long time ago and it had no effect on me.

How much Nadh did you take and for how long?? Thanks

 

[CFS_for_19_years]

How much Nadh did you take and for how long?? Thanks

It was 20 years ago so I have no recollection whatsoever of the dose. I might have taken it for a month.

 

[Hip]

Why don't you search the forum for more info.

 

[Catjbro]

Hi Hip - Thanks for the link
Cathy

 

[robinhood12345]

PQQ is actually an essential nutrient. A b vitamin so is super important like the rest of them. I'm about to start on it tomorrow.

 

[Hip]

PQQ is actually an essential nutrient.

It was originally thought pyrroloquinoline quinone (PQQ) might have vitamin status (ie, essential for life), but now we know this is not the case. It can still be a helpful supplement for some conditions; it's helpful for Parkinson's for example; but I did not notice any benefit for ME/CFS.

 

[pamojja]

but I did not notice any benefit for ME/CFS.

Same with me, no felt effects from PQQ.

 

[robinhood12345]

This is from a textbook from the 1940s or 50s about if PABA meets the criteria of a vitamin/essential nutrient (which it does) but apply it to PQQ

However, the question whether it is to be considered one of the B-vitamins, can be answered.
By definition, a vitamin B complex factor is
a) a natural constituent of yeast, liver, and/or cereals.
b) water-soluble.
c) a growth-promoting substance for bacteria, yeasts, fungi, and/or
molds
d) a co-enzyme or activator of enzymstic prozesses.
e) physiologically effective in minute amounts.
f) a substance which causes a deficiency diseage when laoking in the diet.

a) check
b) check
c)check
d)check. Coenzyme in at least four quinoproteins in man
e)check. The nutritional requirements of PQQ are probably in line with folic acid and biotin in terms of micrograms per day versus milligrams per day.
f)check. Deficiency can be induced in rodents.

So it slams dunk all 6 criteria. Choline does not meed requirement d) but deficiency can be induced in man/rodents which means it is an essential nutrient so those criteria need to be modified. If a deficiency can be induced in rodents/man by leaving it out of the diet then that is enough.

And more info on it

http://doctormurray.com/pqq-the-next-nutrient-superstar/

If someone is deficient in PQQ eating foods high in it or supplementing it will help. If they are not deficient it may not help. Just like any of the other 40 plus essential nutrients. Although PQQ is something like 100,000 times better anti oxidant than vitamin c so it may have application outside of just treating dietary deficiency of it. Studies on melatonin say the anti oxidant capability of things in the body goes melatonin>vitamin E> vitamin c> glutathione but PQQ may have to be put in first place.

Studies say parsley, and green tea are the highest in PQQ but they did not check rice bran cereal or yeast which I suspect to be higher than both.

I'm about to start taking PQQ today

 

[robinhood12345]

Just dumped 40mg of PQQ. Here is info on its kinetics https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.24.1_supplement.540.21

 

[Hip]

This is from a textbook from the 1940s or 50s about if PABA meets the criteria of a vitamin/essential nutrient (which it does) but apply it to PQQ

That is not the definition of a vitamin (should be obvious, as the water-soluble criterion (b) would exclude vitamin A and vitamin E from vitamin status).

The dictionary definition of a vitamin:

any of a group of organic compounds which are essential for normal growth and nutrition and are required in small quantities in the diet because they cannot be synthesized by the body.

Thus to be a vitamin, the chemical compound has to be organic, and consumption of the compound has to be essential for life (because the compound cannot be synthesized by the body).

So essential minerals like sodium, calcium, magnesium and zinc are not vitamins, because they are not organic compounds (by the chemistry meaning of organic). And oxygen is not a vitamin, as it too is not organic.

Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) is a human vitamin, but it is not a vitamin for most animals, as most animals can synthesize their own ascorbic acid. Thus for most animals, consuming ascorbic acid is not essential for life.

Interestingly enough, human beings possess the 3 genes needed to synthesize vitamin C; but there is a mutation in one of these 3 genes that stops it from working properly, which is why we cannot synthesize our own vitamin C. We acquired this mutation long ago in evolutionary history. Whereas most other animals have the full set of genes working, so can make their own ascorbic acid.



Regarding whether PQQ has vitamin status, Wikipedia says:

The scientific journal Nature published the 2003 paper by Kasahara and Kato that essentially stated that PQQ was a new vitamin and in 2005, an article by Anthony and Fenton that stated that the 2003 Kasahara and Kato paper drew incorrect and unsubstantiated conclusions.

It's still uncertain, but is now thought that the human body can synthesize its own PQQ (which if true, would exclude PQQ from being a vitamin). Examine.com says:

Although mammalian synthesis is not certain, PQQ does occur normally in the mammalian body[23] and approxiamtely 100-400 nanograms of PQQ are thought to be made in humans each day;[3][24] leading some authors to claim an estimated tissue concentration of approximately 0.8−5.9ng/g in humans.

 

[robinhood12345]

Yeah exclude the water soluble criteria. The only real criteria is a deficiency state must be inducible in mice or humans.

Nowhere in those three studies cited (3,23,24) by examine.com for the claim the body makes it's own PQQ is there any such claim.

One of the studies does say

However, there are no reports that eukaryotic cells can synthesize PQQ. If mammalian cells cannot synthesize PQQ, two origins of it can be considered: production of PQQ by enteric bacteria and/or dietary origin. In the present study, we have been able to detect PQQ in every food (Table 1); its levels are 5-10 times higher than those obtained in human tissues or body fluids [14]. Thus, it is probable that PQQ existing in human tissues is derived from the diet, at least partly.

Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1136652/pdf/biochemj00065-0028.pdf

So Examine.com is not a credible scientific reference.

Do you know of a study thats says our cells can make PQQ?

Bacteria in our guts make all the b vitamins but not enough to live on, and so they are considered essential, and an RDA is given for them. We can make choline in cells but even then it is not enough to sustain life, and so it is considered essential, and an RDA is given for that too. So bacteria in our guts can make PQQ too but just like the other b vitamins it is not enough to sustain life, and a deficiency state can be induced in mice meaning PQQ is an essential nutrient, a deficiency state can exist in humans causing disease, and we shoul try to get enough of it through diet.

 

[Hip]

Nowhere in those three studies cited (3,23,24) by examine.com for the claim the body makes it's own PQQ is there any such claim.

OK, maybe examine.com got that one wrong.

Do you know of a study thats says our cells can make PQQ?

I could not find any study providing evidence that PQQ can be synthesized in vivo, but I just now found this paper which says the opposite, that PQQ cannot be synthesized in mammals:

Although PQQ is not biosynthesized in mammals, trace amounts of PQQ have been found in human and rat tissues because of its wide distribution in dietary sources. Importantly, nutritional studies in rodents have revealed that PQQ deficiency exhibits diverse systemic responses, including growth impairment, immune dysfunction, and abnormal reproductive performance. Although PQQ is not currently classified as a vitamin, PQQ has been implicated as an important nutrient in mammals.

The above could explain why PQQ is often described as a "vitamin-like" compound: absence of PQQ from the diet in rodents may not lead to death (so therefore PQQ is not a vitamin, as it is not essential for life); but nevertheless, absence of PQQ from the diet does lead to various impairments in rodents, indicating that PQQ is important, and thus "vitamin-like".

 

[robinhood12345]

They stopped the study before the rodents died. Just leave them on a PQQ deficient diet, and they will die, same with a diet 100% absent of any other b vitamin.

Another study showed the rats on a PQQ deficient diet had 20-30% less liver mitochondria when examined after they killed them. Sooooo it is a unique vitamin, and needed for mitochondrial renewal... very important. To say it is non essential endangers the life of humanity. Might as well say thiamine, riboflavin, folate, niacin etc are not essential but "vitamin like". If I was in charge of classifying things I would of classified it as essential nutrient as soon as it was shown a deficiency state can be exhibited in rats. One day it will get classified but it might take years or even decades.

The study that showed a table with PQQ rich foods, and had fermented soy as number 1, said in the text milk, and eggs had up to 16,000 ng/g of PQQ so they are the highest known sources. Rice bran, and yeast would b high too.

Time to have my PQQ for the day.

 

[Hip]

Just leave them on a PQQ deficient diet, and they will die, same with a diet 100% absent of any other b vitamin.

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Another study showed the rats on a PQQ deficient diet had 20-30% less liver mitochondria when examined after they killed them. Sooooo it is a unique vitamin, and needed for mitochondrial renewal.

It's not a vitamin unless the animal dies without it. The "vita" in vitamin is Latin for "life", indicating that vitamins are essential for life.

If I was in charge of classifying things I would of classified it as essential nutrient as soon as it was shown a deficiency state can be exhibited in rats.

I suspect if you were in charge of things, you'd cease production of antibiotics and vaccines, as according to your previous post, you believe pathogens cannot cause death nor long-term disease in well-nourished individuals, which is the craziest idea I've ever heard.

 

[robinhood12345]

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

That complete essential nutrient deficiencies ultimately result in death in rodents/man? Look at b vitamin transport defects like thiamine or riboflavin, and what happens when there is 0% transport ability- death. Search OMIM for transport defects of all 11 or so b vitamins.

It's not a vitamin unless the animal dies without it. The "vita" in vitamin is Latin for "life", indicating that vitamins are essential for life.

So your saying animals die with just one total deficiency of any one of the b vitamins? Yeah.... science agrees.. but between your first question, and this one you changed your mind.

And that was never once an established criteria of a vitamin. Just that a deficiency of it in the diet will cause sickness/ bio chemical changes indicating a problem.

I suspect if you were in charge of things, you'd cease production of antibiotics and vaccines, as according to your previous post, you believe pathogens cannot cause death nor long-term disease in well-nourished individuals, which is the craziest idea I've ever heard.

Correct. For example look up the effect of b6 deficiency on the immune system ,and anti body production. A scientist by the name Axelrod has a lot of studies on it in pubmed. B6 deficiency almost completely abolishes the bodies ability to make anti bodies to fight of micro organisms, and other aspects of the immune system. Other studies show cancer patients are low in b6. So give those patients as much anti biotics or chemotherapy as one wants, and they will only get sicker- never better. Give them a bowl of rice bran cereal each day- which is high in b6- or another good food source of b6, and they would get better assuming there was not also a deficiency of a vitamin that is not in rice bran like c, b12, ADEK.

 

[Sushi]

Other studies show cancer patients are low in b6. So give those patients as much anti biotics or chemotherapy as one wants, and they will only get sicker- never better. Give them a bowl of rice bran cereal each day- which is high in b6- or another good food source of b6, and they would get better assuming there was not also a deficiency of a vitamin that is not in rice bran like c, b12, ADEK.

Unsupported statements like this do not make for a good discussion. Without quoting sources, there is no basis for discussion.

 

[robinhood12345]

That;s why I said to search pubmed for them. And mentioned one scientists name.

http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1955.tb32088.x

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28376200

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22116703

 

[Hip]

That complete essential nutrient deficiencies ultimately result in death in rodents/man?

No, I asked specifically for evidence that the absence of PQQ from the diet leads to death. Without that evidence, nobody can claim that PQQ is a vitamin, even though we know PQQ is an important nutrient, and the body functions under par without it.

Give them a bowl of rice bran cereal each day- which is high in b6- or another good food source of b6, and they would get better assuming there was not also a deficiency of a vitamin that is not in rice bran like c, b12, ADEK.

That's a preposterous statement; a bowl of rice as the cure for cancer. Where do you get these ideas?