Views on B12--Greg (B12 oils) view vs Rich Van's view--Thoughts?

[Athene*]

This is very heartening, Athene. Thanks for this detailed response. I've found as I've gone down on the B2 and then raised it again recently to about 40-50mg/day (a combo of FMN from Source Naturals and my B-Minus Complex has 10mg in the half I take each day) that taking the B2 with dinner and even an hour or so before bed may be helping my sleep. Though I'm still nervous about actually saying that! Seven hours for three nights, amazing! I know just what you mean about staying awake all night, or getting no more than 3 or 4 hours. I regularly bargain with the universe for 5 hours. You know, at this point even an extra hour can make so much difference.

Life can be so grindingly exhausting on this much sleep.

I'm sure you'll see my other posts on: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/page-19#post-723154
And: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...s-b-12-treatment-plan.3566/page-8#post-723027


I get the weakness, as well as sore muscles and tendons. It's getting me to order some of the Methyl/Ado B12 Oils, which Greg said I could begin to titrate with a drop. I've got to find a way to get more of the DQ into my system.

Thanks one and all for your support...

I'll check out those other posts you made, thanks, Kath. Very best of luck with the DQ - it can be so hard to get all four elements into the body and starting low and slow seems to be the only way. I only ever managed 100mg of LCF, for example, but my OAT test showed I'm not too bad in that regard, thankfully, though I'm low on other things. I read a good post by @@Freddd too on the way he times the folate and how folinic in food can affect it. He actually manages on 16mg when he takes folate x 4 times daily, and needs 30mg if he only takes it twice daily. It has a half-life of three hours. I'm going to try it to see if I can lower the folate...I'll try and find the link in case you want to try it

 

[Athene*]

@Kathevans That folate-timing post by @Freddd is here, in response to Dbkita - you need to scroll down
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hylation-and-healing.21725/page-3#post-332913

 

[Athene*]

This study found that "Sleep time was significantly reduced under MB12 intake."

This happened to me with Me b12, but adding the b2 has helped hugely. It seems to have calmed down the adrenalin production and helped my cortisol production

 

[Kathevans]

@Athene* Very interesting. Folate is a ticklish item, clearly. Things are coming clearer for me (possibly). I increased folate yesterday, feeling symptoms warranted it--from 600 to 1200mcg--then suffered for it not only in feeling over-hyped during the day, but also with the facial tightening that occurred afternoon, evening and in the middle of the night (not to mention still now). Each time more B2 helps to relieve it. I'm not sure what's up, but read in my OAT Test that I may have trouble metabolizing folate (never mind folinic!) and someone here mentioned the SLC19A which related to folate and thiamine transport and I'm +/+ (G;G). One more possibility. Maybe all I really need is the folate in food (I'm only MTHFR+/-). Who knows.

Symptoms abound, but I seem to be controlling some of them with the B2. Has it been chasing your folate levels that brought you to 130mg/day of B2? Are you taking plain B2, FMN or r-5-p (the same thing, apparently) or a combo?Just wondering. I do a little of both, but know that @ahmo seems to get the most mileage with the Source Naturals FMN. After going down, I'm heading back up, though I see from my Excell chart that levels as high as 70 didn't necessarily make a difference. What I do find is that over time our bodies react differently to a supplement, and now that I've been on the B2 for more than a month or two, my reactions may be different. My sleep seems to be better for the last two days. I'll say no more!

I have ordered the Methyl/Adenosy B12 Oil from Greg, having decided that even starting with a drop or two of the stuff would be a place to begin. And I'd rather start with the oil so I know/can feel what the absorption rates are in my body. I also recall loving the extra stamina the Ado/B12 gives--going all day without needing to collapse--and possibly, even better sleep.

I appreciated your comments about beta-blockers adrenaline and potassium levels. After those hairy nights a week or so ago, I went back on my very low dose beta blocker for the time being and whether it was that or my body adjusting in other ways, both the high potassium needs and adrenaline at night disappeared. So terrific.

Today it's sunny and I'm going to head into the woods (local park) for a walk. If I'm lucky I have the energy to do this several times a week, but I'm hoping with our spring weather to push a bit more and absorb some of the D that is otherwise so hard to get into my body... No sun glasses for me!

 

[Athene*]

I'm glad you're getting more clarity - 'I'll say no more'. Yes indeed. I can identify with that...

The dratted potassium issue raised it's head again today! I've had to go up a bit again today - got achy muscles and heart fluttering bouts and bouts of sweating after cutting it down for three days. Taking more again later today fixed all that. I'm really keen to lower the damn thing - who wants to be shovelling in that amount of crap? Now that you mention thiamine - I read just the other day that if supplementing with potassium in high doses it's very important to watch your thiamine as it can get depleted.

You've convinced me to get the gene data I've been avoiding paying for. (The OAT was so expensive!). But you know so much about your genes and I'm just going by symptoms and OAT data. At this stage I think I'd feel a bit safer with that extra bit of clarity. Might even help Greg sort out the potassium thing for once and for all, though what he said about aldosterone and adrenalin made a lot of sense, so I'm hoping I'll be able to reduce potassium again soon when b2 builds up in my system more.

Hope you enjoyed your sunny walk If I manage a walk I overdo it, and keep trying to repeat it every day...must take it easy, but so frustrating!

 

[Athene*]

@Kathevans Sorry forgot to answer - my high b2 dose - yes, 'chasing folate levels' - trying to decrease folate intake and rely more on b2 to create it, and also taking high dose b2 to get myself replete (or try to) quickly. I will probably reduce it to about 40mg eventually. I use the normal b2 tablet, not any activated form. Greg advises that the active form is 'clipped back' to the normal form in the gut and that the active forms are a 'rip off' so I was happy to believe him and save a few euros!

 

[Athene*]

Can I ask folks here a slightly TMI question re b2? Greg of b12oils says we should have bright green pee when we're taking enough b2, otherwise it's not absorbing. Mine is not bright green. It's normal colour. I have manganese in my diet - drink plenty of tea throughout the day. Anyone know any other reason it might not be aborbing? Funnily enough I've had low b2 symptoms last few days...

 

[Kathevans]

taking more again later today fixed all that. I'm really keen to lower the damn thing - who wants to be shovelling in that amount of crap?

I've still got some reflux from the potassium I do take--about 1500mg/day--with the added coconut water and squash/lentils, so something over 2,000. I'm trying to remain upright during the day and drink lots of water to help that out. I've heard Greg's rant on the enzymated vitamins as often as he's emailed me, which is quite a few times at this point! However, I do have to say, when I'm in the middle of the tight face at night or even during the day, it's the FMN that reaches me almost instantly. That's why I'm taking a combo of both. With each meal I'm taking some B2, which ironically happens to be r-5-p, too, but taken orally. I feel that perhaps that takes longer to get into circulation and might actually help out at night to bridge the gaps. I can still feel when the B2 stops working in me, when I need more, and it happens to be between 2 1/2 and three hours, which is just about what the 'B2 I love you' thread talks about. At the start--and even now when I need the FMN, I can feel the B2 get into my system, enter it and do its work. Amazing...

bright green pee when we're taking enough b2, otherwise it's not absorbing

I think this is a bunch of hooey! Bright yellow, which according to folks on B2 threads say can wax and wane, perhaps more so as you become filled up, but never green. Hmmm!

btw, what are your low B2 symptoms? I've discovered that the muscular tension, my Dupytren's contracture included, respond to more B2, as does my heart--providing a more relaxed, even beat, less likely to have any pvcs (premature ventricular contractions, which are like a skipping or little blip--not dangerous).

As to genetic testing, I'm constantly getting on the site Promethease, into which you can put any gene that 23andme (the cheapest genetic test I know of: it's $200 now, but was $99 when I had it about a year ago) tests for and get your status. It's databank linked to something called Snpedia, which has articles related to the genes that you can access. So, actually, it's much more information than you could ever take in--at least for me. the problem with it is, you're constantly tempted to look up yet another gene and find out how you might be having problems--it can drive you crazy. That said, there are many things that are useful selenoprotein genes, biotindase and so on. I can use these words, but I don't know much about them!!

I don't do the walk every day; though even a couple of years ago I often did, some days even twice a day. That's how much energy I had (sometimes). Then things got much worse and I ended up here. Now I'm grateful when I can walk a few times a week. Today I felt less breathless than I did just yesterday. So that was good. I should probably not walk tomorrow even if I have the energy. My tendons begin to act up if I overdo.

 

[Athene*]

Ha! 'Hooey' is a great word! Seriously though - Bright yellow sometimes, that's true, but green seems a bit strange, or evidence of UTI! Maybe (hopefully!) he meant yellow

Thanks for the info re 2.5 to 3.0 hours. I was leaving longer gaps between doses (4.0 hours) so maybe shorter would work better.

That's interesting that you're noticing the effects so markedly! I do notice a bit of a reduction in adrenalin when I take it. That's my main symptom of 'b2 deficiency' you asked about. Manifests as sweating and heart palpitations (on and off, sometimes the odd skipped beat feeling). Muscle aches too - the worst in back of neck at base of skull. Makes it hard to sit upright as if neck is too weak, as well as sore. These are low potassium symptoms for me too which are the same as low b2, but low b2 causes low potassium for me because of the aldosterone dumping from the high adrenalin. I will just have to continue with potassium for a while until the b2 takes over and controls the adrenalin. I do wonder how much b2 I'm absorbing though. I don't have great mineral absorption after years of undiagnosed coeliac disease.

Ugh. Will this ever end? I had a few brilliant days (and nights) though, best in years, so that's good, and it gives me hope, even though right now I feel yuck! Tomorrow might be better.

Ta very much for the genetic testing info I must do the 23andme. Lucky you getting it for $99. It's €169 now...

 

[Athene*]

Interesting about reflux, by the way. I get it when female hormones surge. I know that's happening because of breast pain and other symptoms, but I'm not sure if it's oestrogen or progesterone that is the culprit, or if it's poor methylation that causes the odd surges in the first place...

 

[dannybex]

@Kathevans Sorry forgot to answer - my high b2 dose - yes, 'chasing folate levels' - trying to decrease folate intake and rely more on b2 to create it, and also taking high dose b2 to get myself replete (or try to) quickly. I will probably reduce it to about 40mg eventually. I use the normal b2 tablet, not any activated form. Greg advises that the active form is 'clipped back' to the normal form in the gut and that the active forms are a 'rip off' so I was happy to believe him and save a few euros!

130mg is HIGH? I'm taking 300 mg a day and if I back down my eyes become more sensitive to light.

 

[Athene*]

130mg is HIGH? I'm taking 300 mg a day and if I back down my eyes become more sensitive to light.

Hmm. Interesting - my husband has light sensitivity. Do your eyes water when there's bright light outside? I read some take 300mg daily for high bp too. I'm just going by what some other folk here seem to get by on. I seem to have a longstanding deficiency though so I might need even more. Thing is I don't want to end up creating some other insufficiency. How long have you been on the 300mg dose? Any insufficiencies caused? You seem happy enough to keep going with the 300mg?

Any thoughts on the bright green pee question (above)?

 

[Kathevans]

Any thoughts on the bright green pee question

A slight readjustment! After closer examination, I thought there might be a green tinge, say chartreuse! I found a paint sample that suggested this shade: Dutch Boy: Lush Chartreuse!

The other thing I thought is that perhaps, though it may be a bit more expensive, the Source Naturals sublingual, or at least some it of, might be more easily absorbed by your system...since this is something you are wondering about.

I had a few brilliant days (and nights) though, best in years, so that's good, and it gives me hope, even though right now I feel yuck!

In fact, this is what those on the B2 thread talked about--that some days were good, some nights much better sleep, interspersed with regression or cleansing, or the body simply adjusting in uncomfortable ways. Overall, though, over some months, there was an upward trend. I remember Asklipia saying, at least initially, that it was going more slowly than she thought it would. Others, too, I think. Overall upward trend would be good.

Not a great day here and I have another thought--if, as it seems to me, that each day the small amount of folate I'm taking seems to 'use up' the B2 I've taken--and it seems this way because my folate deficiency symptoms return but if I take more B2 they usually go away again--then how can I ever refill the tank? I keep trying to take more B2, but at this point, each of these give me some weird symptoms. I would rather not be taking ANYTHING. But when I confessed to Greg that I'd gone down in the B2 I was taking, he chastised me and said I just needed to stick with it and go up slowly.

@dannybex How long did it take you to titrate up to 300mg? Did you always feel like you were just giving yourself something your body wanted and needed, or did it seem like it needed some getting used to, some coaxing, some patience?

These are probably silly questions. But every step I take it feels as if I'm unbalancing something else. (In my case, it seems to be folate)

At least today.

My ears hurt and have pins and needles in them. Really. Who ever heard of this?

 

[Athene*]

That's so funny. How clever of you to match the colour so exactly! Mine is exactly the same today - I googled the paint! Identical! It's only today I have it, after about six weeks on b2. Greg says it's a good sign and that it's just taken a long time to build up in the system because I was so low, and the green colour is when you're getting rid of the excess. Funny how it suddenly began today. How long did it take you to make green pee?! (Where else but here would you get asked a question like that )

Sorry you didn't have a great day today - similar here. I almost went back up to the huge dose of 5MTHF & potassium but I just kept taking more b2 instead and the same doses of potassium and 5MTHF that I've cut down to (which are still relatively high compared to some folk). I'm not as bad as my previous bedridden stage or anything - I'm up and about, but no walk today - not enough energy and am mostly sitting, working on computer. A bit cold again too, which I hate. I warm up when I take the 5MTHF. Tempting to just take more.

The adrenalin rushes are horrible because of the high Me b12 I'm on without the b2 working optimally yet, but if I try to cut the Me b12 and not the 5MTHF as well, I get methyl trap symptoms. And if I cut 5MTHF I feel really horrible - still need a lot for now. I wonder how long it will take us to make 5MTHF? I know you get the adrenalin and aldosterone dumping/low potassium thing too - horrible isn't it, the heart palps, muscle ache in neck etc?

So glad to hear about the slow, but upward trend. It sure is worrying when we're at this early stage. I'm just going to trust that the b2 will eventually make enough 5MTHF on its own.

You mentioned earache - I get earache (inside ear) when 5MTHF goes low. I wondered if it was some kind of fluid retention, or fluid shift - it's like when flying in a plane and the pressure changes.

So nobody knows how long this is likely to take? We'll just have to keep going...

 

[Johnmac]

So the green pee is excess B2? (Traditionally, it's kinda bright yellow, as for me.)

I've warmed up my body lately (as winter sets in here in the Antipodes) by taking iodine (37.5mg/day), which must have cranked my thyroid up.

I don't know how long it will take for any of us. I have a demented friend who's had quite some gains in 2 months on the oil - more sociable, higher mood. But no memory/cognition changes yet: I believe they can take a year

My fatigue had largely evaporated by Day 28 on the oil. It had disappeared on the Fred Protocol too on several occasions - but.it generally reappeared in the wake of the various crashes, as I ramped big doses of folate, carnitine & potassium up & down. I'm glad that's over.

 

[Athene*]

Mine was bright yellow for weeks after I began b2. I wasn't feeling much improvement for ages, so Greg said it was possibly not absorbing (b2) and he seemed a little puzzled by that. He also said pee would usually be bright green after a month or so, but mine was still bright yellow. It took six weeks to get bright green (yesterday) on 125mg daily. He said that showed it was now absorbing and that it had taken that long to 'fill up' because I was so low, and that I was now taking it in and peeing the excess out.

That's good about the iodine. My husband's 'low normal' thyroid results & low temp were fixed within weeks of using iodine 12.5mg daily (for a year or so). He's now only taking 2mg and has 'text book' thyroid function according to doc, who would never have approved of iodine. I can only manage a crumb.

Hopefully we'll all continue to improve

While writing this, It just crossed my mind that some of your recent symptoms you mentioned sound a bit like bromide detox. 37.5mg of iodine would cause a fair bit of bromide detox. I guess you worked up to that slowly. Bromide can cause boils etc as it comes out, and can put a lot of stress on the internal organs unless you're washing it out with salt, lots of C, other things I can't remember from my iodine days. My husband had itching, and acne at the beginning - hadn't had that since being a teenager. When he did salt flushes and then pulsed the iodine, to rest the kidneys, his skin and insomnia and other issues healed up. I have a page on iodine protocol somewhere, but you may already be aware of all that.

 

[Kathevans]

that it had taken that long to 'fill up' because I was so low,

I can't say for sure when mine got to the greeenish tinge, but it is there now. Yours may have taken longer because you are taking so much folate and it was getting used up as fast as you put it in. But this is good news. I, on the other hand, as you know have had a very hard time tolerating the folate as it seems to cause a lot of muscle tightening. As to the ears, I certainly get ringing since starting Fred's protocol, so that may be some of it. But it also definitely has to do with the muscles/tendons running up the side of the head. I have read that the ado B12 is a help when it comes to a stiff neck (sometimes, though as we know there are multiple causes for every symptom in the book!), so I can't wait to get the new oils and begin to titrate them.

So no folate for me today. I'm just watching carefully to see where this leads me this time. Each time, as I've said, it seems to be different. This morning was different when it came to the B2--more extreme. It's the fourth day in a row that I've taken about 2/3 of the blurb of B-12 oil (by scraping up the other 1/3rd with a sort of credit-card and just rinsing it down the sink) and when I took the B2 as FMN, I got really shaky. Nervous. Adrenalized. When I first started taking the B2 (back in January), I got instantly tired and felt as if I could fall asleep--which I sometimes did. this morning that hyper feeling lasted a little over an hour and then, because I'd only gotten 4 hours of sleep, I went back upstairs and climbed back into bed where I read a bit and fell asleep for another hour or so. I

What was more amazing was that the rest of the day fell into that euphoric state that @Johnmac has mentioned. It wasn't that I wasn't tired physically, but I went on the longest walk I've taken for over a year. I noted that my thighs felt weak just a block or two from my house, but I headed into the woods and took the long way, anyway. I was fairly pooped by the time I got home, but it was a beautiful day once again. I sat on benches twice and once was in a huge empty ball field as it was the middle of the day--not even someone with a dog. And the sun was beaming down on me.

I felt so blessed.

Yesterday I felt suicidal and today I was over the moon. My husband said, "Make a note of that, will you?"

One of my worst traits is that I'm so much in the moment; one of my greatest traits is that I'm so much in the moment.

[As to iodine, Sherpa has had great success with that, I know. I had very good success with a small dose, titrating up to 3 drops, or what is about 200mg/day I believe. I was never able at the time to go higher as it wreaked havoc, like so much else, with my sleep. I continue with that dose daily, particularly because I use sea salt. I still have cold feet all the time and I was just online shopping for a down bed jacket, even with the summer coming! Now I've got to take a look at selenium, which I'm only getting in my Brazil nuts!]

 

[dannybex]

@Kathevans I can't remember how fast I went up on the B2. I think it was kind of off and on for a bit. Waaaaay back in 2012 I did the 'Dog Person' B2-I-Love-You protocol, and that seemed to help a bit, but it was temporary -- and TINY doses of b2 as well as manganese (that was her Missing Mineral of the Year at that time). It wasn't until about a year and a half ago or so where I started to have real problems with sensitivity to light, eye strain, dryness/tearing -- and that matched symptoms of riboflavin deficiency.

(It's worth noting that angular chelitis is probably the main deficiency symptom, one which Fred attributes to folate, which is a possibility too, but usually comes up as a B2 deficiency symptom in research.)

So I started increasing it -- probably started at 50 -- then quickly went up to at least 200. And so now I take anywhere from 200-300 mgs a day. And sometimes vitamin A as well.

 

[dannybex]

Hmm. Interesting - my husband has light sensitivity. Do your eyes water when there's bright light outside? I read some take 300mg daily for high bp too. I'm just going by what some other folk here seem to get by on. I seem to have a longstanding deficiency though so I might need even more. Thing is I don't want to end up creating some other insufficiency. How long have you been on the 300mg dose? Any insufficiencies caused? You seem happy enough to keep going with the 300mg?

Any thoughts on the bright green pee question (above)?

Yes, eyes water, but sometimes are dry as well. I've read that this is common:

http://www.everydayhealth.com/vision-center/the-healthy-eye/watery-eyes.aspx

This gets worse when I take "too much" niacin, or eat foods higher in histamine like today, so that may be a confounding factor. But definitely the eyes water more (maybe some sort of freaky protection attempt) when exposed to sudden bright light. Even indoor light.

I've been taking 200-300 mgs for over a year. 400 mgs is recommended and proven beneficial for migraine sufferers, so I have a feeling what's not needed is peed out, as noted several times in this thread. But green pea? Never heard of it, and not sure about Greg's explanation. I'd google-scholar that for back up…

 

[Johnmac]

Mine was bright yellow for weeks after I began b2. I wasn't feeling much improvement for ages, so Greg said it was possibly not absorbing (b2) and he seemed a little puzzled by that. He also said pee would usually be bright green after a month or so, but mine was still bright yellow. It took six weeks to get bright green (yesterday) on 125mg daily. He said that showed it was now absorbing and that it had taken that long to 'fill up' because I was so low, and that I was now taking it in and peeing the excess out.

That's good about the iodine. My husband's 'low normal' thyroid results & low temp were fixed within weeks of using iodine 12.5mg daily (for a year or so). He's now only taking 2mg and has 'text book' thyroid function according to doc, who would never have approved of iodine. I can only manage a crumb.

Hopefully we'll all continue to improve

While writing this, It just crossed my mind that some of your recent symptoms you mentioned sound a bit like bromide detox. 37.5mg of iodine would cause a fair bit of bromide detox. I guess you worked up to that slowly. Bromide can cause boils etc as it comes out, and can put a lot of stress on the internal organs unless you're washing it out with salt, lots of C, other things I can't remember from my iodine days. My husband had itching, and acne at the beginning - hadn't had that since being a teenager. When he did salt flushes and then pulsed the iodine, to rest the kidneys, his skin and insomnia and other issues healed up. I have a page on iodine protocol somewhere, but you may already be aware of all that.

Thanks Athene. The present round of skin infections began in a period when I was taking no iodine, so there is probably no relation. The last round (in Jan) began just after I'd ceased iodine - so this time I resumed iodine to see if it had any effect good or bad on the boils: but nothing.

My ceruloplasmin & serum copper have come back normal (tho I was supplementing on the day of the test), so unless anyone can tell me different, I don't seem to be copper deficient. My remaining slender theory for these uncharacteristic bursts of infection is raised blood sugar - 5.7, the bottom of the pre-diabetes range. Hardly any data supports this, but I reason that if diabetes can knock the immune system round badly, maybe pre-diabetes can knock it round a bit.

My bromide detox symptoms are an hour of what feels like flu - runny nose, mild fever & malaise.

As for the bright green pee being desirable - that's a new one on me. I'll have to ask Greg what he meant. Also about the dosage: 125mg/day is 3 times what he said was ok for me.

Thanks for the insights.