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B2 I love you!

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
It shouldn't be creating a B1 deficiency then, but maybe someone else will know more.
In the case of B2 I have gathered the following:

  • B2 speeds up MAO and will cause fast serotonin breakdown - this has been true for both DH and I - he is - MAO-A and I am +/+ MAO-A
  • B2 promotes T4 synthesis, and lack of appropriate amounts of Selneium will impair conversion to T3, resulting in hypothyrodism
  • successful B2 supplementation needs lots of minerals to work (iron, copper manganese, magnesium, selenium, potassium) esp. due to stimulation of RBC synthesis

I had to start an anti-depressant while on B2 and L-T4, which later I was able to ditch by replacing all of them with T4+T3.
Thyroid hormones, serotonin and mood: of synergy and significance in the adult brain
The use of thyroid hormones as an effective adjunct treatment for affective disorders has been studied over the past three decades and has been confirmed repeatedly. Interaction of the thyroid and monoamine neurotransmitter systems has been suggested as a potential underlying mechanism of action. While catecholamine and thyroid interrelationships have been reviewed in detail, the serotonin system has been relatively neglected. Thus, the goal of this article is to review the literature on the relationships between thyroid hormones and the brain serotonin (5-HT) system, limited to studies in adult humans and adult animals. In humans, neuroendocrine challenge studies in hypothyroid patients have shown a reduced 5- HT responsiveness that is reversible with thyroid replacement therapy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15235525
after four to six weeks of inefficient tricyclic or serotoninergic treatment on a correct dosage testified by plasmatic dosages, it is recommended to initiate a T3 treatment

The comment about B1 (from page 6 of this very thread) says
I am relatively new to this thread and it has grown so fast in just a day!

I found this link useful and the sections 'Nutrient Interactions, B-complex vitamins' and Deficiency interesting. For you, symptoms of riboflavin deficiency include "sore throat, redness and swelling of the lining of the mouth and throat, cracks or sores on the outsides of the lips (cheliosis) and at the corners of the mouth (angular stomatitis), inflammation and redness of the tongue (magenta tongue)......". I think I recall that Freddd reported that AMP relieved his symptoms of cheliosis but maybe it was the B2 and not B12???

I found this interesting also, "The conversion of riboflavin into FAD and FMN is impaired in hypothyroidism and adrenal insufficiency.."

I found this to be a very good general read.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/riboflavin/

another general site (http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=93) states that "Many of the early-stage deficiency symptoms for riboflavin involve eye-related problems. These problems include excessive sensitivity to light, tearing, burning and itching in and around the eyes, and loss of clear vision." Im not sure if this is your experience of inflammation or not,

The same site states:

How do other nutrients interact with vitamin B2?

Vitamin B2 status is strongly affected by intake of vitamin B1. Adequate supplies of vitamin B1 can help increase levels of vitamin B2. However, very high levels of vitamin B1 intake can increase the loss of vitamin B2 in the urine. Other nutrients, especially iron, zinc, folate, vitamin B3 and vitamin B12 are not fully available in the body without adequate supplies of riboflavin.


It goes on to say about B1 "What events can indicate a need for more foods high in vitamin B1?

Loss of appetite
"Pins and needles" sensations
Feeling of numbness, especially in the legs
Muscle tenderness, particularly in the calf muscles (...)
From a thiamine thread:
Some of us have wondered why initial positive results boomeranged with higher doses, that perhaps it could be depletion of some nutrient, mineral or other vitamin.

Usual suspects: other b vitamins (too much of one depletes others).

Unusual suspect: manganese (I read in an old Mindell book about supplements that manganese worked with thiamine to produce an enzyme that aids thyroxin production). Note: I'm hypothyroid and crashed with excess thiamine and wonder if others that crashed suffer from low thyroid as well? (...)
 

pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
You don't necessarily need to be deficient in B2 for it to help you. There are a lot of genetic polymorphisms that cause an enzyme to have a decreased cofactor binding affinity, which means that the cofactor will detach from the enzyme more easily. This is believed to be a genetic adaptation to conserve the cofactor for more short-term survival functions. In these cases, maintaining a higher concentration than is normally possible would make the enzyme work better.

For example, here's a list of polymorphisms that are thought to respond to higher concentrations:

fw41ust.png


Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11916749

good chart, shows some of the diseases that some types are treatable by riboflavin.
FAD, NAD and NADP are involved in mitochondrial energy process's like the Krebs cycle and I think the electron transport chain.
There are various diseases labeled "riboflavin responsive" including mitochondrial and fatty acid disorders.

I did a challenge test with riboflavin last month while between IVIG treatments.
Surprising to me, stopping the 200mg per day of B2 brought back muscle pain in the middle of the night, which was a symptom of my myopathy for the last decade.
Took a B2 and laid down, 30 minutes later the pain went away.

So I increased the B2 to around 600mg per day, 100mg every two to four hours and I had noticable improvement in energy and reduction in pain after coming home from work.
Today was my first day of IVIG treatment for this month.
8 hrs later and I can do a few pull ups without the muscles screaming.
Thats never happened before, the IVIG has been helping the past 5 months but its a slow progress.
 

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
@pogoman: A few pages ago someone posted a case study on mitochondrial myopathy that responded to high dose thiamine and riboflavin (300mg each), not sure if you've seen it.

Mitochondrial Myopathy in Follow-up of a Patient With Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
Introduction. Symptoms of mitochondrial diseases and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) frequently overlap and can easily be mistaken.

Methods
. We report the case of a patient diagnosed with CFS and during follow-up was finally diagnosed with mitochondrial myopathy by histochemical study of muscle biopsy, spectrophotometric analysis of the complexes of the mitochondrial respiratory chain, and genetic studies.

Results
. The results revealed 3% fiber-ragged blue and a severe deficiency of complexes I and IV and several mtDNA variants. Mother, sisters, and nephews showed similar symptoms, which strongly suggests a possible maternal inheritance. The patient and his family responded to treatment with high doses of riboflavin and thiamine with a remarkable and sustained fatigue and muscle symptoms improvement.

Conclusions
. This case illustrates that initial symptoms of mitochondrial disease in adults can easily be mistaken with CFS, and in these patients a regular reassessment and monitoring of symptoms is recommended to reconfirm or change the diagnosis.

Source: http://hic.sagepub.com/content/3/3/2324709615607908.full

Have you tried high dose thiamine as well?
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Interesting! What were your startup symptoms? And how long did they last?

I've really been working on B2 for about 2 months now, starting out fairly low at about 30 mg and am now up to about 65-70mg a day.

Initially it gave me a deeper sleep and nightmares, possibly still gives me deeper sleep as I'm beginning to dream occasionally. It has always made me feel tired initially and certainly still makes me more tired earlier in the evening. I've been going to bed earlier and getting up a bit earlier. I've had all the dry eye and mouth symptoms and still do, though they aren't quite as bad as in the beginning...

My sleep has been a mess for decades, so I'm not surprised it has had a profound effect in this area. I think the effects of B2 are cumulative. If you go back and read this thread, looking for Asklipia's posts ever few weeks, she catalogued her reactions and benefit beautifully. I highly recommend you read them. They're really helped me to be patient and just wait it out.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,952
@pogoman: A few pages ago someone posted a case study on mitochondrial myopathy that responded to high dose thiamine and riboflavin (300mg each), not sure if you've seen it.

Mitochondrial Myopathy in Follow-up of a Patient With Chronic Fatigue Syndrome


Source: http://hic.sagepub.com/content/3/3/2324709615607908.full

Have you tried high dose thiamine as well?

I have seen a relationship between Complex I and Complex IV with respect to biotin, too.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17182796

Biotin deficiency inhibits heme synthesis and impairs mitochondria in human lung

Biotin deficiemcy in complex I causes heme-a deficiency, heme-a deficiency causes loss of Complex IV.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I did a challenge test with riboflavin last month while between IVIG treatments.
Surprising to me, stopping the 200mg per day of B2 brought back muscle pain in the middle of the night, which was a symptom of my myopathy for the last decade.
Took a B2 and laid down, 30 minutes later the pain went away.

First of all, what is an IVIG treatment?

And what interests me most in your post is the way you describe relief after resupplying the B2 your body has come to depend on. When I tried to go off the Country Life B-Complex vitamins I took for over a decade (because of the pain they were causing--there was about 800mcg of folate, I think, and 400 of B12--all oral, not sublingual, which over time certainly put me into a methyl-trap), but I would feel completely weak in my back and have a lot of pain in my back. Not to mention exhausted. When I could stand it no longer, I'd take a B-complex and, as you said, within 30 minutes, I'd feel completely fine.

Until the day when I did this and the methyl-trap was so bad I ended up shaking, teeth chattering, my whole body struggling and punching itself out on the inside. I knew that was the last time I would EVER take that multi and it was.

The journey has been slow, but I'm learning. B2 was the only B vitamin that I actually tested low on on my OAT test over a year ago. I wish I could say the B2 was what I addressed first, but that wasn't the case. But I've come round to it and I'm here now, ramping up to see if my myopathy is B2 related.

I've been losing muscle mass for years. It's wonderful that the B2 has had such a profound affect on you. If you're working every day, you have more energy than I. This is heartening.

Thanks.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
I've been losing muscle mass for years. It's wonderful that the B2 has had such a profound affect on you. If you're working every day, you have more energy than I. This is heartening.
I think the response to B2 can differ significantly between men and women. It is very rare for men to be deficient in iron. Also heme content increases in response to estrogen as iron availability increases. Low estrogen causes muscle loss in women. I think this is one main reason why Manganese is needed for B2 to work better (Manganese is estrogenic).
Heme is synthesized in the mitochondria <- this is new information for me :jaw-drop:
Heme, iron, and the mitochondrial decay of ageing
Heme, the major functional form of iron, is synthesized in the mitochondria. Although dis-
turbed heme metabolism causes mitochondrial decay, oxidative stress, and iron accumulation, all
of which are hallmarks of ageing, heme has been little studied in nutritional deficiency, in ageing,
or age-related disorders such as Alzheimer’s disease (AD). Biosynthesis of heme requires Vitamin
B6, riboflavin, biotin, pantothenic acid, and lipoic acid and the minerals zinc, iron, and copper,
micronutrients are essential for the production of succinyl-CoA, the precursor for porphyrins, by
the TCA (Krebs) cycle. Only a small fraction of the porphyrins synthesized from succinyl-CoA are
converted to heme, the rest are excreted out of the body together with the degradation products of
heme (e.g. bilirubin). Therefore, the heme biosynthetic pathway causes a net loss of succinyl-CoA
from the TCA cycle. The mitochondrial pool of succinyl-CoA may limit heme biosynthesis in defi-
ciencies for micronutrients (e.g. iron or biotin deficiency). Ageing and AD are also associated with
hypometabolism, increase in heme oxygenase-1, loss of complex IV, and iron accumulation. Heme
is a common denominator for all these changes, suggesting that heme metabolism maybe altered
in age-related disorders. Heme can also be a prooxidant: it converts less reactive oxidants to highly
reactive free radicals. Free heme has high affinity for different cell structures (protein, membranes,
and DNA), triggering site-directed oxidative damage. This review discusses heme metabolism as
related to metabolic changes seen in ageing and age-related disorders and highlights the possible
role in iron deficiency.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I think this is one main reason why Manganese is needed for B2 to work better (Manganese is estrogenic).
Heme is synthesized in the mitochondria <- this is new information for me

This is great. I've always wondered why manganese was recommended on the B2 protocol. Mine is well above the 'normal' range, but perhaps I ought to take a small amount more. I understand we shouldn't take more than 11 mg/day at any rate. I do know that I've been low estrogen for a long time, so it would be good to nudge that a bit... so, manganese and sweet potatoes!

"The mitochondrial pool of succinyl-CoA may limit heme biosynthesis in defi-
ciencies for micronutrients (e.g. iron or biotin deficiency)"

And I've just discovered that my Biotin is low--probably from eating two eggs a day for I-don't-know-how-many years. It's back onboard, now, so let's see what happens.

I seem to be having a stronger response to the B2 now that I've eliminated all the gluten cross-reactive foods from my diet. I'm 5 days in and I have a lot of mucus in my throat and am sputtering through the night. Last night I had a hard time sleeping and my costochrondritis, in particular a spot just where my sternum meets soft tissue at the stomach, was very sore. It hurt without touching it. I think a lot of this is lymphatic.

And just a reminder: I had my first cold in 5-7 years after starting extra B2 back in January. What a surprise. I was miserable. But in a weird way, happy about it!
 

pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
@pogoman: A few pages ago someone posted a case study on mitochondrial myopathy that responded to high dose thiamine and riboflavin (300mg each), not sure if you've seen it.

Mitochondrial Myopathy in Follow-up of a Patient With Chronic Fatigue Syndrome


Source: http://hic.sagepub.com/content/3/3/2324709615607908.full

Have you tried high dose thiamine as well?

Yes I have tried that and the other B vitamins at one time or another, of them only B2 consistantly shows it helps.
Because I had a muscle biopsy I know I do not have the ragged red or blue fibers found in the more researched mito diseases.
However toxic myopathies like mine do have a mito connection.

This article is from 2009 and doesn't cover the more recently researched necrotizing autoimmune myopathy but is a good primer on the various supplements used for mitochondrial diseases.
Note that the amino acids listed are also what muscle builders use.
I also take BCAAs to help prevent fatigue that I get sometimes.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3561461/

First of all, what is an IVIG treatment?

And what interests me most in your post is the way you describe relief after resupplying the B2 your body has come to depend on. When I tried to go off the Country Life B-Complex vitamins I took for over a decade (because of the pain they were causing--there was about 800mcg of folate, I think, and 400 of B12--all oral, not sublingual, which over time certainly put me into a methyl-trap), but I would feel completely weak in my back and have a lot of pain in my back. Not to mention exhausted. When I could stand it no longer, I'd take a B-complex and, as you said, within 30 minutes, I'd feel completely fine.

Until the day when I did this and the methyl-trap was so bad I ended up shaking, teeth chattering, my whole body struggling and punching itself out on the inside. I knew that was the last time I would EVER take that multi and it was.

The journey has been slow, but I'm learning. B2 was the only B vitamin that I actually tested low on on my OAT test over a year ago. I wish I could say the B2 was what I addressed first, but that wasn't the case. But I've come round to it and I'm here now, ramping up to see if my myopathy is B2 related.

I've been losing muscle mass for years. It's wonderful that the B2 has had such a profound affect on you. If you're working every day, you have more energy than I. This is heartening.

Thanks.

Your welcome and thank you too, I hope you find relief from your symptoms.

IVIG stands for intravenous immune globulin, here in the US its standard treatment for autoimmune diseases.
Basically I'm hooked up to a IV pump for 4 hrs while I receive the medicine intravaneously.

Today I finished the third and final day of this months treatment.
I've been up since 7am, did the treatment at the hospital and then went to work for 9 hrs.
Been home for a couple hours and at this point I've been up almost 20 hrs.
I am tired but not fatigued and sore everytime I move like it has been before.
I have been taking B2 every few hours all day and this is the best I've felt after treatment.

I have not had the reactions like you to vitamins or methyl supplements so I don't know if anything I have is the same as yours.
I do have a couple of problematic SNPs that I take supplements for (in my sig) like methyl folate, methyl B12 and lithium orotate.
The only bad reactions I have had are to sulfur containing supplements like msm and a few others.
 
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pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
@pogoman: What kind of doctor did you go to in order to get tested for mitichondrial myopathy? I'd like to do it too if the cost isn't prohibitive.

I am being treated by a neurologist.
It was a long and winding road getting diagnosed so I will just suggest the tests that I found were relevant.

The main one is the creatine phosphokinase (CPK) test that shows evidence of muscle damage in the blood.
Optional is the aldolase test which is not used as much, both of these I am way over the normal numbers.
They also did tests for inflammation (ESR and another I can't remember) which were negative for me.
I had a muscle biopsy of my thigh which showed necrosis and atrophy.
The final test that convinced my neuro I had something that was autoimmune related was the needle emg test in my leg.
EMGs in other parts of the body were negative and a test for carpal tunnel was negative.

Hope this helps.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I am being treated by a neurologist.

Good for you. A neurologist may be the only specialist I haven't seen! My PCP wants me to have another sleep study, which I know will mean just another night of horrible, disturbed sleep with ten or twenty wires attached to my head, where I will lose my best hours (early/late morning). The CPK test sounds like a good place to start...

As to the Rheumatologist, all he had in his arsenal was prescriptions for muscle relaxers and pain killers.

As to your high levels of B2, how much potassium do you need to support those levels? Or are you one of those lucky people whose potassium levels seem not to need much supplementation?!

All shared experience is helpful. No doctor is going to tell us much of what we need to know.
 

pogoman

Senior Member
Messages
292
@Kathevans

I've seen a rheumotologist, a couple of endorcrinologists and the head of the hospitals genetic dept so I know how you feel ughhh.
The first neurologist who treated me I think for a couple years, only gave me pain pills too and I had to drop him and request a second opinion which led to the current treatment.

I've supplemented before but I don't suffer low potassium symptoms, I do get leg cramps sleeping sometimes but its caused by dehydration.
I'll drink some water and it will subside within a couple minutes.
I also take Losartan for high blood pressure, its a form of potassium so it may helping in that regard.

One other thing about muscle diseases I've learned, neurologists basically divide them into either inflammatory or non inflammatory groups.
Inflammatory diseases are like lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc and there is many times an autoimmune connection.
Unfortunately the non inflammatory diseases don't have a lot of research compared to the inflammatory ones and what I have is both autoimmune and noninflammatory.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
One other thing about muscle diseases I've learned, neurologists basically divide them into either inflammatory or non inflammatory groups.
You've provided me--and no doubt many others--with an excellent primer, along with the long article you referenced above. It's given me a lot to think about.

When I first got really sick, the way it presented was that my muscles wouldn't work, or that's how I described it. I went to the gym, did my usual low-key workout and suffered pain in my muscles. I could no longer do what I'd done for about a decade. This followed an infection that required long term antibiotics by about 6 months.

At the time all my doctor could say was I must have been working out too hard.

I've already felt definite improvement on a slowly titrated B2 regimen over the last two months. I've also just added back in a very low dose, 400mcg/day of Folate because I'd recognized there were bowel symptoms that were definitely related to folate deficiency. And, btw, I was right, one day back on the folate and they're gone. Amazing what happens when you unlock the code...

Thanks again.
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
I was told that the body cannot assimilate more than 25mg B2 at one time. Larger amounts should be taken in split doses. The initial dose should be 12.5 mg followed by a slow increase.

successful B2 supplementation needs lots of minerals to work (iron, copper manganese, magnesium, selenium, potassium) esp. due to stimulation of RBC synthesis
Christine (Dog Person) wrote, quite possible in this thread:
What I found was I could recreate the same identical set of deficiency symptoms regardless of if I used high levels of any one of the b's, zinc, magnesium, manganese, chromium, molybdenum, copper or iron. This was when I learned it truly is the balance of them all that matters because they work together.

ETA [19Apr]: Christine was working with dogs, not people.
 
Last edited:

sflorence

Senior Member
Messages
134
I've noticed that if I dose any higher than 12.5mg of B2 at once it gives me anxiety.

P5P at 50mg seems to balance the anxiety that b2 gives me.

But I also really needed B1 it turns out. If I just take B2 I get depressed, which in turn goes away with B1.

I use Benfotiamine, at about 500mg daily.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Actually, on this thread http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/page-15#post-713827, @Johnmac and @Gretel seem to be taking up to 150mg of B2 a day. Currently I'm taking about 50 mg, but found that I have to keep it to morning and afternoon or it messes with my sleep. My question to them is do they adhere to Dog Person's belief that the body can't absorb more than 25mg at a time and if so, how do they time their doses?

I thought Greg, the B2 oils guy, said to take 'loads' of B2 and in order to actually replete low levels, I think others took more than 50mg/day.

Personally, I wouldn't put too much credence in what 'Dog Person' said anywhere on this site, with the exception of the general need for B2 when it comes to methylation and other chemical reactions, but not when it comes to dosing or other minerals and their interactions.

For those of us who were around back in 2011-2012 when she first arrived here, and took a chance on working with her, she was found to have a history of claiming that 'manganese' was the cause of this, but earlier it was zinc, or low iron (all on other sites, and with other diseases, in humans and dogs). All of these things she claimed with the utmost assurance, yet then changed her mind completely and arrived here with her "B2 and manganese" theory.

And then she contacted some of us about a year after she was booted from PR, saying 'the answer' was coQ10 and selenium.

Anyway, in studies with migraine sufferers, 400 mgs were used:

http://www.neurology.org/content/50/2/466.short