Bill Walsh Finally Explains Over-Methylation In A Way I Can Understand

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks, I'm still eating high fat, but not low carbs. It's more like high fat, high carbs, medium protein.

Fat lowers glycemia. I found I had to reduce it considerably to get out of and not fall back into acidosis.

 

[picante]

Fat lowers glycemia. I found I had to reduce it considerably to get out of and not fall back into acidosis.

I don't have an issue with acidosis. There's a loooong list of acid-inducing stuff that you don't tolerate and I do.

High carbs + low fat also induces hypoglycemia, obviously. So I figure the best solution is a lot of both, especially since my body mass index is below range. The meat I had to cut back because of problems with ammonia.

 

[Gondwanaland]

problems with ammonia.

Ammonia raises body acidity for its neutralization.

I don't think you have acidosis either, otherwise you would be reporting breathlessness...

Your case is tough to crack

 

[picante]

Your case is tough to crack

Yeah, but you're a smart cookie. So are quite a few other people on here. But sometimes I think we need something like this:http://www.scientificcomputing.com/...uld-make-impossibly-complex-problems-solvable

 

[Freddd]

Yeah, but you're a smart cookie. So are quite a few other people on here. But sometimes I think we need something like this:http://www.scientificcomputing.com/...uld-make-impossibly-complex-problems-solvable

Hi Picante,

I do have a view on that. A large part of solving any problem like this is in collecting the data needed for and from which it is possible to solve the problem. Collecting the wrong data or arranging it wrong, what assumptions are made, can all make sure of getting the wrong answer. Asking the wrong questions will get wrong answers every time. If for instance, all of the data containing the correct answer are excluded because of assumptions made and buried 50 years back, it is highly unlikely to overturn all the research based on it for the last 5 decades

I would hazard a guess that every one of us is outside 2 standard deviations on lots of things. None of us would be here if we all responded with the majority of 95% answers. So for instance the solution calls on hundreds of 95% solutions which are very wrong for us, the answer to the question won't be in the data collected. The data from people like us has been ignored for a long time, the studies all pretended we didn't exist and didn't ask the right questions from the 2.5% tail position. How probable are any of us? I maintain that it is the sum of the answers that causes us to exist, whether by survival itself, or our biochemistry way off in a multi-improbable corner of biology.

 

[ahmo]

@picante I came across this in my notes before reading your's. good timing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21270363

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21270363# 2011 Mar;141(3):531-4. doi: 10.3945/jn.110.130369. Epub 2011 Jan 26.

Nutritional genomics: defining the dietary requirement and effects of choline.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Zeisel SH[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=212703631.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21270363#

Abstract

As it becomes evident that single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) in humans can create metabolic inefficiencies, it is reasonable to ask if such SNPs influence dietary requirements. Epidemiologic studies that examine SNPs relative to risks for diseases are common, but there are few examples of clinically sized nutrition studies that examine how SNPs influence metabolism. Studies on how SNPs influence the dietary requirement for choline provide a model for how we might begin examining the effects of SNPs on nutritional phenotypes using clinically sized studies (clinical nutrigenomics). Most men and postmenopausal women develop liver or muscle dysfunction when deprived of dietary choline. More than one-half of premenopausal women may be resistant to choline deficiency-induced organ dysfunction, because estrogen induces the gene [phosphatidylethanolamine-N-methyltransferase (PEMT)] that catalyzes endogenous synthesis of phosphatidylcholine, which can subsequently yield choline. Those premenopausal women that do require a dietary source of choline have a SNP in PEMT, making them unresponsive to estrogen induction of PEMT. It is important to recognize differences in dietary requirements for choline in women, because during pregnancy, maternal dietary choline modulates fetal brain development in rodent models. Because choline metabolism and folate metabolism intersect at the methylation of homocysteine, manipulations that limit folate availability also increase the use of choline as a methyl donor. People with a SNPs in MTHFD1 (a gene of folate metabolism that controls the use of folate as a methyl donor) are more likely to develop organ dysfunction when deprived of choline; their dietary requirement is increased because of increased need for choline as a methyl donor.
[/QUOTE]

 

[picante]

Thanks, @ahmo! Yes, I do have two homozygous MTHFD1 snps: rs17349743 and rs803422.

A footnote I put in my Sterling report says: "Methylene tetrahydrofolate dehydrogenase. Both of these homozygous snps are associated with increased risk of late-onset Alzheimer’s. They affect intracellular homocysteine-to-methionine conversion."

This seems like it could also be a clue about my methylfolate intolerance. If the MTHFD1 gene controls the use of folate as a methyl donor, and I bombard the system with extra methylfolate, it may not be able to regulate how much gets used for homocysteine-methionine conversion. I seem to have to douse it with niacinamide every time I take even a tiny bit. (The main symptom I get is brain fog + depression from mefolate, which is resolved by niacinamide.)

Is this plausible? I wish I knew more about the function of this gene, because the abstract you quote above implies the opposite: that I'll need more choline as a methyl donor because methylfolate is not able to meet the demand for methyl groups.

If that is the case, and I supply exogenous methylfolate, then it may not get used. In which case, I guess I'll wind up with too much methylfolate running around.

Oh dear, I wish they would use more specific language.

The PEMT snp I have that's homozygous is rs4646406. They're talking about a different one (rs12325817): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20861172

 

[ahmo]

Yes, I do have two homozygous MTHFD1 snps: rs17349743 and rs803422.

Same like me. both.

I wish I could answer your questions re folate. I can only say that lecithin + choline have been very good for me. I'm using 1 tsp sunflower lecithin, and when stressed, will need another or even 2 more during the day.

I never used niacin to deal with overmethylation. I always successfully took a sublingual MB12, and it took care of the symptoms.

When I added Alpha GPC to my citicoline, I experienced another boost in stamina. or maybe more accurately, of well being. I've been noticing how actually cheerful I've become. Certainly I consciously do what I can to enhance this, but I wonder if it might also be whatever else the cholines have interacted with.

 

[Beagle]

And yes, I know brain fog is a symptom of methylfolate deficiency. But methylfolate does the same thing! It gives me brain fog! And depression. AAAuuuuuuggggghhh.

Thanks for the update picante, I really appreciate it.

I've nothing to suggest but hope your state improves soon. @Gondwanaland's comments about hypoglycemia make sense, even if elsewhere on these forums I've not seen them mentioned (only how good the supp's you have been taking are). The human body remains a mystery

 

[picante]

The potassium issue has me very frustrated, because taking it does resolve heart palps and some fatigue and neck spasms, but it also causes polyuria. And I am dehydrated most of the time. I think this is why I've had so much trouble with histamine-type reactions: dehydration!

So in desperation I QUIT all methylfolate, methylB12, and TMG 3 days ago to see if my need for potassium would abate. NO! It didn't! Two days ago I took 7 doses (= 2100 mg). Yesterday 1200 mg. Today I'm already at 1200 mg at 2:30 pm. I've had heart palps all day and R-side neck spasms and headache, so I keep shoveling it in. It helps every time.

As it turned out, the mefolate and meB12 and TMG were not contributing much to my insatiable need for potassium. I was up to 2400 mg some days (a record for me) even without the methyl donors. Mostly because of increasing heart palps, which I was unable to calm the night my mother fell and broke her hip, Feb. 7th. I was too weak to go to the ER with her, and my husband went instead.

You would think they would have abated a bit over the following week, but NO! Heart palps & exhaustion continued, along with weight loss and a ravenous appetite (hypoglycemia), so I finally got wise: Those are symptoms of taking too much thyroid .

I had started on Thyrovanz Jan. 12th, a bovine thyroid supp, splitting one cap/day into two doses. I was taking my usual T3 along with it (50 mcg/day), assuming I would not be doing much T4-to-T3 conversion. Well, conversion seems to have kicked in 3 weeks later. I'm flabbergasted, because porcine thyroid did absolutely zilch for me. I've tried it 3 times over the last 10 years.

Now I've deleted all of the T3, because suddenly, every time I took it, the heart palps got really LOUD. So I'm back down to 1200-1800 mg of potassium/day. The heart palps are much better, my energy is much better, my neck spasms have calmed down, and I've gained back a whopping 3 lbs.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@picante FINALLY

 

[Misfit Toy]

@picante -are you still taking thyrovanz? I just started taking it. I am OKAY on it. It's only been 5 days but I have had zero reaction. I reacted to everything else. I am on 60 mpg of T3 and I don't know how to do this. I am only on 25 of thyrovanz. I am so happy I have had no reaction. YES.

 

[Freddd]

As it turned out, the mefolate and meB12 and TMG were not contributing much to my insatiable need for potassium. I was up to 2400 mg some days (a record for me) even without the methyl donors. Mostly because of increasing heart palps, which I was unable to calm the night my mother fell and broke her hip, Feb. 7th. I was too weak to go to the ER with her, and my husband went instead.

You would think they would have abated a bit over the following week, but NO! Heart palps & exhaustion continued, along with weight loss and a ravenous appetite (hypoglycemia), so I finally got wise: Those are symptoms of taking too much thyroid .

I had started on Thyrovanz Jan. 12th, a bovine thyroid supp, splitting one cap/day into two doses. I was taking my usual T3 along with it (50 mcg/day), assuming I would not be doing much T4-to-T3 conversion. Well, conversion seems to have kicked in 3 weeks later. I'm flabbergasted, because porcine thyroid did absolutely zilch for me. I've tried it 3 times over the last 10 years.

Now I've deleted all of the T3, because suddenly, every time I took it, the heart palps got really LOUD. So I'm back down to 1200-1800 mg of potassium/day. The heart palps are much better, my energy is much better, my neck spasms have calmed down, and I've gained back a whopping 3 lbs.

@picante

Some unknown percentage have changes in thyroid because of MeCbl and cofactors. At least a few people were in active stages of Hashimoto's thyroiditis and appear to have it reversed. The thyroid gland contains a lot of cobalamin, probably AdoCbl I would expect since there is no way for MeCbl to hang around, and it likely "powers" the thyroid reactions. So it's possible that your thyroid gland healed to some degree that you no longer need as much. It sounds like you could use some testing from your doctor. It may not be done healing. Good luck

 

[Dominic Pukallus]

Wow I stumbled on this thread by accident, I'm never here as I actually don't have CFS/ME but I am a Walsh fanboy through personal experience with his Nutrient Therapy. Anyone who's read his book Nutrient Power is more than welcome at the Facebook group devoted to it, though it has more of a Mental health focus. We need people of your research calibre to provide some authoritative input! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1536401979966094/

 

[Freddd]

As it turned out, the mefolate and meB12 and TMG were not contributing much to my insatiable need for potassium. I was up to 2400 mg some days (a record for me) even without the methyl donors. Mostly because of increasing heart palps, which I was unable to calm the night my mother fell and broke her hip, Feb. 7th. I was too weak to go to the ER with her, and my husband went instead.

You would think they would have abated a bit over the following week, but NO! Heart palps & exhaustion continued, along with weight loss and a ravenous appetite (hypoglycemia), so I finally got wise: Those are symptoms of taking too much thyroid .

I had started on Thyrovanz Jan. 12th, a bovine thyroid supp, splitting one cap/day into two doses. I was taking my usual T3 along with it (50 mcg/day), assuming I would not be doing much T4-to-T3 conversion. Well, conversion seems to have kicked in 3 weeks later. I'm flabbergasted, because porcine thyroid did absolutely zilch for me. I've tried it 3 times over the last 10 years.

Now I've deleted all of the T3, because suddenly, every time I took it, the heart palps got really LOUD. So I'm back down to 1200-1800 mg of potassium/day. The heart palps are much better, my energy is much better, my neck spasms have calmed down, and I've gained back a whopping 3 lbs.

@picante,

There is another trace mineral you might find interesting, Vanadium. I use Vanadyl Sulphate. Amongst the suggest effects are restoring insulin sensitivity (decreased A1C, and glucose) and reduces cholesterol by reducing the making of it in the liver. So articles speak of 200mg for pharmacological doses to be active. I have found that trace mineral doses (2mg) can work wonders if one is deficient in it.

Its good you found the cause of too much thyroid. What disturbed me about B1 and some others, is that the increase of potassium did not appear attached to cell making, especially with that 50% increase in need and nothing more healing. When I started rebuilding muscle after completing the the deadlock quartet, I had a huge increase in potassium need but I could see that I was making cells. So when I took the Vanadium, on 3rd or 4th day I had a small increase in potassium, 200-400mg, similar to each of the other trace minerals.