Vitamin C allergy - what now?

[Ninan]

I'm very dependent on the B12 protocol, without it I'm completely bed bound and can hardly communicate. Before christmas I got stomach issues, candida and this has led to allergi against vitamin C. I'm testing different kinds but it seems I just can't tolerate it and it gets worse every time I take it. I've stopped now and am falling like a rock. If this continues I won't be able to surf the net or get up at all.

Without C I have no effect from B12. Is there any solution to this? Except stopping everything and trying to heal the gut. Not sure that would even work when I have so little energy.

I've had to increase my cofactors regularly over the years. Took 4 grams of C in 2014, have had to take 5 in 2015 to have effect from B12 (and not having my need for folate go through the roof). Does anyone know why this is? I don't think it's just the gut and bad uptake, it seems there is something more since I seem to need a lot through the skin too.

I have lithium ororate at home but haven't tried it. Could lack of lithium be a reason to why I've needed more and more over time? In 2007, when I started B12, it was enough just taking pills. Then I needed shots and then more and more until I had no effect. So I stopped it and lay bed bound for years. Then I started @Freddd 's protocol and got B12 working again.

I'm thinking that if I could get back to when I only needed the vitamin C (and other cofactors) I get from food to get B12 to work, maybe I could get through this. So, bottom line: How do I decrease my need for C so that B12 can work anyway?

Quite desperate, grateful for help. (I'm working on my gut as much as I can but it will be difficult when I'm stuck in bed.) @caledonia ? @ahmo ?

PS. I know vitamin C allergy is more or less unheard of but some people seem to have it. My dad has it too and I seem to get everything he gets.

 

[PeterPositive]

Hi,
are you sure it is allergy? Couldn't it be intolerance? Maybe your digestion is not able to handle much of it... I have had lots of digestive issues back in 2010-2011. I could eat a little food, very restricted diet and I could not handle most oral supplements including vitamin C in the typical dosages (e.g. 500mg) I could barely tolerate 100mg.

What kind of symptoms do you get and what dosage do you use? Maybe for the time being it would be best to find a tolerable dose and stick with it until you can fix some of the digestive issues...

Also the direct link between C and B12 escapes me... I am not sure you need vit C to "activate" B12 at all. Maybe this has to do with glutathione which does depend on Vit C, although typically you don't need very high doses. A few hundred milligrams should be fine to keep your GSH from oxidating too quickly.

good luck!

 

[Ninan]

Hi,
are you sure it is allergy? Couldn't it be intolerance? Maybe your digestion is not able to handle much of it... I have had lots of digestive issues back in 2010-2011. I could eat a little food, very restricted diet and I could not handle most oral supplements including vitamin C in the typical dosages (e.g. 500mg) I could barely tolerate 100mg.

What kind of symptoms do you get and what dosage do you use? Maybe for the time being it would be best to find a tolerable dose and stick with it until you can fix some of the digestive issues...

Also the direct link between C and B12 escapes me... I am not sure you need vit C to "activate" B12 at all. Maybe this has to do with glutathione which does depend on Vit C, although typically you don't need very high doses. A few hundred milligrams should be fine to keep your GSH from oxidating too quickly.

good luck!

Thanks for your input, @PeterPositive!

I'm pretty sure it's allergy. I get itching all over, diarrhea, dizziness (found out histamines are vasodilators, that might explain the dizziness and feeling of not getting enough oxygen to my brain). And antihistamines help a lot. I'm going to try vit C from some different sources but so far no luck.

I've taken Thornes ascorbic acid, 5 grams/day. That's what I need for methylation to work on just 1 gram of folate. With less C I need much more folate for it to work. (I have the same connection between magnesium-folate and zinc-folate.)

Seems that vit C is crucial for folic acid to work, that might explain it. I'm taking folinic acid but that doesn't seem to help.

 

[PeterPositive]

Thanks for your input, @PeterPositive!

I'm pretty sure it's allergy. I get itching all over, diarrhea, dizziness (found out histamines are vasodilators, that might explain the dizziness and feeling of not getting enough oxygen to my brain). And antihistamines help a lot. I'm going to try vit C from some different sources but so far no luck.

Ouch, that's bad, sorry to hear that...
And to think that vitamin C should help with histamine issues...

I've taken Thornes ascorbic acid, 5 grams/day. That's what I need for methylation to work on just 1 gram of folate. With less C I need much more folate for it to work. (I have the same connection between magnesium-folate and zinc-folate.)

Seems that vit C is crucial for folic acid to work, that might explain it. I'm taking folinic acid but that doesn't seem to help.

The Linus Pauling institute mentions a link between folate and vitamin C.

" Vitamin C may limit degradation of natural folate coenzymes and supplemental folic acid in the stomach and thus improve folate bioavailability. A cross-over trial in nine healthy men found that oral co-administration of 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid (343 μg) and vitamin C (289 mg or 974 mg) was associated with higher concentrations of serum folate compared to 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid alone (8). Moreover, a recent study suggested that several genetic variations of folate metabolism might influence the effect of vitamin C on folate metabolism (9). "

See here:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/folate

Maybe you should try adding more folate and reduce the vit C, at least for the time being, to a level that doesn't cause reactions, if it's possible.

cheers

 

[Ninan]

Ouch, that's bad, sorry to hear that...
And to think that vitamin C should help with histamine issues...

Yeah, not happy.

The Linus Pauling institute mentions a link between folate and vitamin C.

" Vitamin C may limit degradation of natural folate coenzymes and supplemental folic acid in the stomach and thus improve folate bioavailability. A cross-over trial in nine healthy men found that oral co-administration of 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid (343 μg) and vitamin C (289 mg or 974 mg) was associated with higher concentrations of serum folate compared to 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid alone (8). Moreover, a recent study suggested that several genetic variations of folate metabolism might influence the effect of vitamin C on folate metabolism (9). "

See here:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/folate

Maybe you should try adding more folate and reduce the vit C, at least for the time being, to a level that doesn't cause reactions, if it's possible.

Thanks, that's interesting. I tried stopping C completely (can't seem to tolerate even a little now) and increased folinic acid. I got as far as 20x800 mcg before I gave up. No effect.

I'm now taking C buffered with salt (Source Naturals Vitamin C, sodium ascorbate crystals) on my skin and seem to get some reactions to that to. (Not where I put it but itching all over etc.) I'm afraid I'm making it worse but quitting would mean saying goodbye to what little life I have left.

I have no effect from B12 now, I'm living on saved energy from two pretty good years. It's wearing off quickly.

 

[Daffodil]

@Ninan this is probably a dumb question, but does the allergic reaction happen even with IV Vitamin C? or liposomal?

 

[Ninan]

@Ninan this is probably a dumb question, but does the allergic reaction happen even with IV Vitamin C?

I haven't tried it but when I take it the itching seem to start when the blood with C reaches that specific part of the body. If I'm lying on my back after taking it my back and bum itches the most, if my arm hangs down that hand itches the most etc. And I get the same reaction from transdermal C. So I suppose there would be no difference. Good idea though.

 

[mango]

So sorry you are going through this
Hoping things improve for you really soon

 

[Ninan]

" Vitamin C may limit degradation of natural folate coenzymes and supplemental folic acid in the stomach and thus improve folate bioavailability. A cross-over trial in nine healthy men found that oral co-administration of 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid (343 μg) and vitamin C (289 mg or 974 mg) was associated with higher concentrations of serum folate compared to 5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid alone (8). Moreover, a recent study suggested that several genetic variations of folate metabolism might influence the effect of vitamin C on folate metabolism (9). "

See here:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/folate

Could this mean that I have problems with the effect of folate? I'm taking folinic acid sublingually and that has the same effect as taking it orally.

Anyone else recognizes this?: If I take too little C (less than 5 grams now) I need much more folate for methylation to work. Otherwise it wears off in hours (that's where I am now). It's the same if I take too little magnesium or too little zink. I need lots and lots of all of them. Is this a normal connection or is there some reason for this that I don't see? An x-factor would be nice here.

 

[Crux]

Hi,

I'll bring up another possibility for the reaction to vitamin C.

There are microbes in the gut, sinuses, etc. that utilize nutrients we consume. Some will benefit us, but others may over grow and produce metabolites like histamine in too high quantities.

I'm sure there are others, but E. coli is one example of a vitamin C utilizing, histamine producing bacterium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC134747/

 

[dannybex]

This is an eye-opener for me. I haven't been able to tolerate much 'c' at all, and have the scurvy-like symptoms to prove it. This will sound really weird, but if I take more than 100 mgs or so of 'regular vitamin c', my tendons, joints tighten up. Happens every time.

I read recently that in TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine), they believe that too much sour taste affects the tendons, so take that FWIW. Also, in Ayurvedic Medicine, they also believe excess sour taste can cause joint inflammation, but also urticaria (hives), although this study found " no significant association between excessive intake of sour taste and urticaria".

I've been able to tolerate the liposomal C just fine -- it's not sour tasting, but is unfortunately pricier. Some folks say it one can make their own, but so far I haven't tried that.

I wonder though since 'C' is regarded as an antihistamine if your reaction might be to the corn, as most 'C' is made from corn-sourced C? There are many non-corn sourced brands of vitamin C, which might be an option.

Hope you find some answers soon @Ninan.

 

[justy]

Folic acid massively increases histamine. I no longer take ascorbic acid (i have MCAS) BUT do take Vit C as magnesium ascorbate. I take this one

http://www.biocare.co.uk/default.aspx?GroupGuid=29&ProductGuid=513250&LanguageGuid=EN

Dannybex may be right:

Over 90% of ascorbic acid in this country is manufactured at a facility in Nutley, New Jersey, owned by Hoffman-LaRoche, one of the world’s biggest drug manufacturers (1 800 526 0189). Here ascorbic acid is made from a process involving cornstarch and volatile acids. Most U.S. vitamin companies then buy the bulk ascorbic acid from this single facility. After that, marketing takes over. Each company makes its own labels, its own claims, and its own formulations, each one claiming to have the superior form of vitamin C, even though it all came from the same place, and it’s really not vitamin C at all.
FRACTIONATED = SYNTHETIC = CRYSTALLINE = FAKE

 

[Ninan]

Thanks @justy and @dannybex I'm trying rose hip powder as we "speak" since there is C derived from it. Hoping it works but not counting on it.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Ninan, I'm really sorry to hear this, too. But definitely do research and try other forms of C, as you may be able to tolerate them. Too much ascorbic acid can rub me the wrong way, too, although I've never had the problems you have. I hope the rose hips works for you!

Also, one thing that seems to help B12 "work" for me is lithium. I don't take much, just put some in a gallon of water and then get it that way (less than 1mg/day, probably more like a "large trace" amount, if that makes sense), but it does seem to help the B12 do its job. Plus provides a subtle brightening of mood and outlook. Too much lithium tanks my thyroid, though. That can be a problem with larger doses for a lot of people.

 

[Ninan]

Rose hip didn't work. Guess it means I'm done with C.

Thanks @whodathunkit So maybe I should try a low dose of Lithium. Is it the ororate form?

 

[Daffodil]

may I ask why lithium is being mentioned here? sorry I am too ill to read the entire thread.
thanks

 

[Ninan]

may I ask why lithium is being mentioned here? sorry I am too ill to read the entire thread.
thanks

Lack of Lithium can lower or take away the effect of B12.

 

[Ninan]

Normally when I take a lot of folate my breasts start hurting (estrogen dominance). This time I've taken two times the normal "huge amount" and they don't hurt a bit. Just as if I hadn't taken any.

Could it be that the lack of C stops absorption of folate all together or almost all together? Is that why the B12 effect disappears without C? And how does that connect to the fact that I've needed more and more C over the years to make methylation work? Is my uptake of folate getting lower and lower? If this has to do with folate and not primarily with C then maybe there is a solution? I've taken the MTHFR test and only had a slight mutation that shouldn't interfere much. I notice no difference between the three different kinds of folate.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[alicec]

Any thoughts on this?

I immediately started to think about @Freddd's refeeding syndrome thread.

I have developed problems with several supplements which I once tolerated well (along with loss of benefit from DQ supplements) and thought this might mean that I had gradually depleted something else - but what?

I'd been casting around for months trying to work this out when at about the same time boron was suggested in the context of magnesium (one of the supplements I had developed problems with) and I found the refeeding thread.

The thread provides a context to help understand the phenomenon.

The two main things that get depleted as discussed in the thread are potassium and folate, but there may be more subtle gradual depletions of various minerals (or other things).

As to what you might have depleted - I immediately thought of folate. You say you take folinic. Maybe this is no longer providing what you need - what happens if you take methyl folate?

 

[Freddd]

Normally when I take a lot of folate my breasts start hurting (estrogen dominance). This time I've taken two times the normal "huge amount" and they don't hurt a bit. Just as if I hadn't taken any.

Could it be that the lack of C stops absorption of folate all together or almost all together? Is that why the B12 effect disappears without C? And how does that connect to the fact that I've needed more and more C over the years to make methylation work? Is my uptake of folate getting lower and lower? If this has to do with folate and not primarily with C then maybe there is a solution? I've taken the MTHFR test and only had a slight mutation that shouldn't interfere much. I notice no difference between the three different kinds of folate.

Any thoughts on this?

Hi Nina,

Let's look at the factors in various ways. Methylfolate, and perhaps one or another form is superior. I'm doing a trial right now with a generic Metafolin type and have two different forms of the 6(S) form (Quatrafolic, and a different form). I'm finding a perceivable difference but I don't know if it is a significant amount of difference yet.

Low methylfolate causes up to a vast increase in inflammation and hyper-over response to almost anything and may be the casue of at least some autoimmune issues.

Now lack of C causes failure to make certain tissues but it has a different fail point than folate. Copper lack, as I discovered the hard way also makes for tissue failure, such as gums shrinkage leading to tooth loss for connective tissue failure, very similar to scurvy.

I have to take 14 grams a day of C to not have chronic painful swollen glands.

Folinic acid in some people is far worse than folic acid blocking l-methylfolate in the body which causes high histamine and inflammation and all sorts of things like MCS and IBS, and food sensitivities/hyper-sensitivities, everything hypersensitivities. I used to have all sorts of stuff like that. Not any more.