Detox adenocobalamin question

[Nikki7]

Detox question...if anyone can weigh in...
I'm taking adenocobalamin now and trying to up it, and I feel like it's really messing with my emotions...almost feel emotionless or just sad
Anyone else? How long?
And having weird pangs in my wrists...wonder what it is?
Thx!

 

[Kathevans]

AdoB12 is said to help with inflammation. I've only begun to experiment with it and actually have had the writs pangs, myself. That said, I've had a lot of other hand pain/tendonitis among my symptoms, so I thought it was just directing healing to that particular place. Are you taking other methylation supplements? Working on Freddd's protocol? I have found that for me, it requires/wants Folate in order to work, which is to say that when I tried it alone, I had huge folate deficiency symptoms. And some of them are the sad/emotionlessness states you mention. these emotional symptoms are always a symptom of needing more Folate for me.

It's the third of the Deadlock Quartet that I've added and they do seem to work synergistically. I can't seem to yet take it daily--at 1/8 tablet of the Dibencozide--so I'm just keeping track of my symptoms and trying to approach it every other or every third day.

It's total experimentation at this point...

Good luck!

 

[Valentijn]

AdoB12 is said to help with inflammation.

By whom?

 

[Kathevans]

@Valentijn I've been trying to understand and ameliorate widespread pain in my body and have found some relief with MeB12. Yet, and this is my own personal experience, taking AdoB12 has added another level to this relief. I wish I understood more about the whys of this, but I'm trying. You'll certainly be better at understanding this than I. I'll try to add the file of this first article at the end, but honestly, I don't know why the font got so big! Here's the Abstract of one of the basic articles I've been looking at:

Abstract
Mammalian nitric oxide synthases (NOS) are a source of the universal second messenger, and pivotal
biochemical molecule, nitric oxide (.NO). NOS are assumed to function catalytically in a haem-centred manner,
by analogy with cytochrome P450. Yet, they differ significantly. Cobalamin, vitamin B12, is believed to
function almost solely as an .NO scavenger and, latterly, as a direct, physiological inhibitor of the NOS. Yet, in
pathology, associated to cobalamin deficiency, functional or otherwise, NOS over-produce superoxide,
peroxynitrite (ONOO-), and other reactive nitrite species, rather than .NO (Figure 7). This paper offers a radical,
new solution to the gaps and inconsistencies in the current understanding of the mechanism of haem-centred
NOS catalysis, which also challenges the other existing paradigm of cobalamin as just an .NO mop. Examination
of a wide diversity of NOS and cobalamin-dependent enzyme structure-function studies, as well as data from the
.NO/cobalamin chemical, biochemical, immunological, genetic, and clinical literature, offers indications that
cobalamin, specifically, in one of its active forms, adenosylcobalamin (AdoCbl), may have a third, eukaryotic
coenzyme function as the principal cofactor of well-regulated NOS catalysis in vivo. The AdoCbl-centred NOS
reaction is described in detail (Figure 5), and some existing evidence that, in vitro, without AdoCbl, NOS
turnover activity is significantly slower than in in vivo AdoCbl-rich environments, is presented. AdoCbl, in
conjunction with tetrahydrobiopterin, couples NOS oxygen binding/activation to L-arginine hydroxylation and
.NO synthesis much more effectively than does haem, overcoming NOS spatial and redox problems, leading to
productive catalysis, decreased radical formation/escape, with a consequent increased ratio of .NO to ONOO-,
and prevention of pathology (Figures 5 & 7). In vivo, haem-centred NOS catalysis may, in fact, be the back-up
NOS reaction, and it‟s predominance in the absence of AdoCbl, with a consequent lowering of the .NO/ONOOratio,
is the real source of supposedly .NO derived pathology.

Keywords: adenosylcobalamin, nitric oxide synthase catalysis, tetrahydrobiopterin, ZnS2N2 on/off switch,
nitrosylcobalamin.

And Links to a couple of others with regard to NOS and pain:
Anti-superoxide and anti-peroxynitrite strategies in pain suppression@http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3478755/
Or:
Nitric oxide in inflammation and pain associated with osteoarthritis @ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582805/

Any thoughts you have on this are much appreciated...

 

[Nikki7]

AdoB12 is said to help with inflammation. I've only begun to experiment with it and actually have had the writs pangs, myself. That said, I've had a lot of other hand pain/tendonitis among my symptoms, so I thought it was just directing healing to that particular place. Are you taking other methylation supplements? Working on Freddd's protocol? I have found that for me, it requires/wants Folate in order to work, which is to say that when I tried it alone, I had huge folate deficiency symptoms. And some of them are the sad/emotionlessness states you mention. these emotional symptoms are always a symptom of needing more Folate for me.

It's the third of the Deadlock Quartet that I've added and they do seem to work synergistically. I can't seem to yet take it daily--at 1/8 tablet of the Dibencozide--so I'm just keeping track of my symptoms and trying to approach it every other or every third day.

It's total experimentation at this point...

Good luck!

@Kathevans
Thanks for weighing in! I started Fredd's protocol approx 3 weeks ago. I'm on basic supplements and making sure I take all four of the deadlock quartet. AdoB12 is throwing me for a loop. MB13 seemed to cause startup but more manageable. I appreciate the thought on methylfolate. My body seems deficient in everything...upping anything brings on major symptoms. I'll attempt it. I hope to see progress over time. I feel I'm having some gut/tissue healing. So hopeful! I came down with CFS in the summer, and I've struggled to work or accomplish much since. I really hope for a life again. Keep me updated on your progress!

 

[Kathevans]

@Nikki7 Well, one thing is becoming clear. For me, stopping or lowering Folate for a day is not a good thing! I tried the AdoB12 with 600 mcg of Folate in the morning and for while felt as if I'd been shot into space in hyper drive! That faded, though, and by late afternoon my folate deficiency symptoms were showing up. IBS tends to be the worst. I swallowed another 200 mcg and went back to feeling a bit revved. I was heading out for New Years Eve dinner and just wanted to make it through the night reasonably.

This 800 mcg of Folate for the day was half of the 1600mcg (800x2) I'd reached. By the end of the evening, I felt overspent, a bit shaky, tension in my face muscles. I slept very poorly and had IBS into the night.

I'm thinking I may just continue to titrate up the folate and Meb12. It's taken me since last August to get here and I may want to stabilize more on them before trying the AdoB12 again. I'd try AdoB12 with the full dose of Folate if I hadn't had such an intense reaction to the 1/2 dose I took yesterday.

I was wondering if you'd had the genetic testing done...it can help to show where your rough spots might be...

 

[Nikki7]

@Nikki7 Well, one thing is becoming clear. For me, stopping or lowering Folate for a day is not a good thing! I tried the AdoB12 with 600 mcg of Folate in the morning and for while felt as if I'd been shot into space in hyper drive! That faded, though, and by late afternoon my folate deficiency symptoms were showing up. IBS tends to be the worst. I swallowed another 200 mcg and went back to feeling a bit revved. I was heading out for New Years Eve dinner and just wanted to make it through the night reasonably.

This 800 mcg of Folate for the day was half of the 1600mcg (800x2) I'd reached. By the end of the evening, I felt overspent, a bit shaky, tension in my face muscles. I slept very poorly and had IBS into the night.

I'm thinking I may just continue to titrate up the folate and Meb12. It's taken me since last August to get here and I may want to stabilize more on them before trying the AdoB12 again. I'd try AdoB12 with the full dose of Folate if I hadn't had such an intense reaction to the 1/2 dose I took yesterday.

I was wondering if you'd had the genetic testing done...it can help to show where your rough spots might be...

@Kathevans
Thanks so much for sharing. I've had a lot of IBS symptoms...I'll try upping folate. I'm currently having severe nerve pain through my face and head...I've had numbness here and probably some nerves coming back I never realized weren't working. The feeling is returning super painfully. I hope it will settle down soon. I'm glad to know things are working from the basic protocol. I find it hard to manage this pain, though. I'm only taking 1000mcg AdoB12...it is amazing how little of it creates a strong effect in the body. I agree with you---I've nearly stopped it myself. I'm just afraid I truly need it with my horrible reaction. I'm not sure how to up it without a majorly bad reaction.
I hope you were able to enjoy New Year's somewhat. This is tough! I so hope we can heal!
I did have the genetic testing recently...I need to get a printout from my doctor. All he told me was that only about 30% of my body can detoxify...70% doesn't detoxify correctly and he recommended b12...he only had cyanocobalamin shots. I've finally ordered methylcobalamin show from an out of state pharmacy. I'll add that when I get it...sublingually for now.
I hope your day today goes better! I totally understand wanting and needing to stabilize. I still work full time and have hoped to keep my job...need to be able to be there!

 

[Kathevans]

@Nikki7 I started with MeB12 first, and in memory, it was easier to take than the AdoB12...for me, of course. I'll look over my Excell Chart later and let you know. The MeB12 absolutely helps with pain... And it helped me considerably. I now take 4-5,000 mcg/day in 2 divided doses.

The MeB12 that Fredd recommends most highly for quality is the one by Enzymatic Therapy, which runs about $5 from Vitacost (free shipping for over $50!)-- 30 1,000mcg sublingual tablets. Freddd has experimented with many and actually rates the quality of many supps.

 

[Nikki7]

@Nikki7 I started with MeB12 first, and in memory, it was easier to take than the AdoB12...for me, of course. I'll look over my Excell Chart later and let you know. The MeB12 absolutely helps with pain... And it helped me considerably. I now take 4-5,000 mcg/day in 2 divided doses.

The MeB12 that Fredd recommends most highly for quality is the one by Enzymatic Therapy, which runs about $5 from Vitacost (free shipping for over $50!)-- 30 1,000mcg sublingual tablets. Freddd has experimented with many and actually rates the quality of many supps.

@Kathevans
Thanks so much...let me know! I should do a chart...I'm journaling. I take 4000mcg a day divided into 4 doses of the Mb12 but have only done it for three weeks. I started enzymatic therapy...loved it. I'm now on jarrow...not liking it as much. I have a harder time telling if it's working. I'll reorder enzymatic next.

 

[Peyt]

@Valentijn I've been trying to understand and ameliorate widespread pain in my body and have found some relief with MeB12. Yet, and this is my own personal experience, taking AdoB12 has added another level to this relief. I wish I understood more about the whys of this, but I'm trying. You'll certainly be better at understanding this than I. I'll try to add the file of this first article at the end, but honestly, I don't know why the font got so big! Here's the Abstract of one of the basic articles I've been looking at:

Abstract
Mammalian nitric oxide synthases (NOS) are a source of the universal second messenger, and pivotal
biochemical molecule, nitric oxide (.NO). NOS are assumed to function catalytically in a haem-centred manner,
by analogy with cytochrome P450. Yet, they differ significantly. Cobalamin, vitamin B12, is believed to
function almost solely as an .NO scavenger and, latterly, as a direct, physiological inhibitor of the NOS. Yet, in
pathology, associated to cobalamin deficiency, functional or otherwise, NOS over-produce superoxide,
peroxynitrite (ONOO-), and other reactive nitrite species, rather than .NO (Figure 7). This paper offers a radical,
new solution to the gaps and inconsistencies in the current understanding of the mechanism of haem-centred
NOS catalysis, which also challenges the other existing paradigm of cobalamin as just an .NO mop. Examination
of a wide diversity of NOS and cobalamin-dependent enzyme structure-function studies, as well as data from the
.NO/cobalamin chemical, biochemical, immunological, genetic, and clinical literature, offers indications that
cobalamin, specifically, in one of its active forms, adenosylcobalamin (AdoCbl), may have a third, eukaryotic
coenzyme function as the principal cofactor of well-regulated NOS catalysis in vivo. The AdoCbl-centred NOS
reaction is described in detail (Figure 5), and some existing evidence that, in vitro, without AdoCbl, NOS
turnover activity is significantly slower than in in vivo AdoCbl-rich environments, is presented. AdoCbl, in
conjunction with tetrahydrobiopterin, couples NOS oxygen binding/activation to L-arginine hydroxylation and
.NO synthesis much more effectively than does haem, overcoming NOS spatial and redox problems, leading to
productive catalysis, decreased radical formation/escape, with a consequent increased ratio of .NO to ONOO-,
and prevention of pathology (Figures 5 & 7). In vivo, haem-centred NOS catalysis may, in fact, be the back-up
NOS reaction, and it‟s predominance in the absence of AdoCbl, with a consequent lowering of the .NO/ONOOratio,
is the real source of supposedly .NO derived pathology.

Keywords: adenosylcobalamin, nitric oxide synthase catalysis, tetrahydrobiopterin, ZnS2N2 on/off switch,
nitrosylcobalamin.

And Links to a couple of others with regard to NOS and pain:
Anti-superoxide and anti-peroxynitrite strategies in pain suppression@http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3478755/
Or:
Nitric oxide in inflammation and pain associated with osteoarthritis @ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582805/

Any thoughts you have on this are much appreciated...

Thank you for this post.
Any idea how N.O. levels can be tested?
I saw some test strips being sold online, but I am not sure how effective those strips would be because it only shows if one is low in N.O. and here I think the objective would be to find out if N.O. is in excess.
I have also heard of a breath test for measuring N.O., but can't find any info on that.

 

[Kathevans]

Hi, @Peyt . As I said, I don't understand a lot of the science behind all this...but I think that the work of Martin Pall and others on the NO/OONO issues is very relevant here. @ahmo has a greater understanding, I think.

I did a cursory search myself and found this interesting piece by a group in support of MCS: http://www.mcs-international.org/downloads/036_martin_pall_nitric_oxide.pdf

If you head to the end of the PDFs, there are some interesting suggestions for working with the oxidative stress caused by NO and peroxynitrate, and these include the B vitamins, l-carnitine, and several minerals, in particular magnesium, selenium and zinc, all of which supports Fredd's protocol.

I spent months titrating up magnesium a couple of years ago, am currently working on zinc (a drop at a time; I am up to 20 mg,/ day), and the selenium I have a wild reaction to. That same reaction of total over-stimulation of the brain that I get from AdoB12 and a host of other things. Wild mind, that's what it is!

As to testing, I'm thinking the OAT has a section on Peroxynitrate, but I'd have to check that. Maybe it was the NutrEval. I liked both of these tests for different reasons...

All I can do is take it slow and be persistent. I believe that over time the good stuff I'm adding will stabilize/counteract/balance/crowd out the negative. And in a very Buddist, non combative way, I prefer to think of it as making more room for what is supporting my body, rather than bludgeoning what is not!

(That said, I'm very human, and this whole situation can definitely be overwhelming, frustrating and downright depressing!)

Another very good overview of this sort of oxidative stress: http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2010/cureNO0210.html

Good luck!

 

[Peyt]

Hi, @Peyt . As I said, I don't understand a lot of the science behind all this...but I think that the work of Martin Pall and others on the NO/OONO issues is very relevant here. @ahmo has a greater understanding, I think.

I did a cursory search myself and found this interesting piece by a group in support of MCS: http://www.mcs-international.org/downloads/036_martin_pall_nitric_oxide.pdf

If you head to the end of the PDFs, there are some interesting suggestions for working with the oxidative stress caused by NO and peroxynitrate, and these include the B vitamins, l-carnitine, and several minerals, in particular magnesium, selenium and zinc, all of which supports Fredd's protocol.

I spent months titrating up magnesium a couple of years ago, am currently working on zinc (a drop at a time; I am up to 20 mg,/ day), and the selenium I have a wild reaction to. That same reaction of total over-stimulation of the brain that I get from AdoB12 and a host of other things. Wild mind, that's what it is!

As to testing, I'm thinking the OAT has a section on Peroxynitrate, but I'd have to check that. Maybe it was the NutrEval. I liked both of these tests for different reasons...

All I can do is take it slow and be persistent. I believe that over time the good stuff I'm adding will stabilize/counteract/balance/crowd out the negative. And in a very Buddist, non combative way, I prefer to think of it as making more room for what is supporting my body, rather than bludgeoning what is not!

(That said, I'm very human, and this whole situation can definitely be overwhelming, frustrating and downright depressing!)

Another very good overview of this sort of oxidative stress: http://www.townsendletter.com/FebMarch2010/cureNO0210.html

Good luck!

Thanks for posting the article,
I looked at it, I saw this on page 9:

Vitamin B12 injections, particularly hydroxocobalamin injections, have been widely used to

treat these several illnesses and hydroxocobalamin is known act as a potent nitric oxide

scavenger, leading to the suggestion that such scavenging is the mechanism of action of

these injections. An early placebo-controlled study of patients with unexplained chronic

fatigue reported statistically significant improvement with such injections

Which is in conformity to what I knew which is "Hydroxocobalamin" is the type of B12 that reduces N.O.
I was a little confused when I saw N.O. mentioned on this thread considering this thread is about Adenocobalamin.

I prefer to back up any supplement that I take continuously on regular basis with some kind of lab work if possible. This has worked well for me over the years because none of the supplements that I take give me any side effects at this time. So naturally when I saw that my Plasma B12 showed low on my lab work I wanted to find the right kind of B12 to take.

This will take further testing. For Adenocobalamin deficiency, the test that is recommended is: Methylmalonic Acid Test which is readily available and I can order it on line and I will soon.

But Hydroxocobalamin testing is the one that I am more interested in and I am still gathering info, and my goal is to find a test that shows the N.O. levels .. It would be interesting to know if the Peroxynitrate on your OAT test showed out of rage?

 

[ahmo]

@Peyt I don't know about any tests for NO. I'm linking some pr NOS articles. Since finally comprehending Martin Pall's work, I've implemented his strategies for reducing peroxynitrite. My understanding is that this will lead to appropriate NO levels. There are an article and a video linked in my signature. The last 20" of 2014 vid lists Pall's antioxidant suggestions. I tried a number, eventually finding acai works best for me. As well as carrots, nut/seed mixture. Lecithin and choline are important for me. After taking steps to eliminate sources of ammonia, my task of 2015 was to decrease peroxy. I've had remarkably good results, avoiding the crash zone.

 

[Kathevans]

Actually, just so I'm not misleading anyone, I took a quick look at the OAT test and see no direct mention of peroxynitrate, although in the fine analysis print there may be some connections. There is something called Quinolinic acid, which I am very high in, that seems to be an inflammatory marker. And in the interpretation section, many results which conclude that the addition of l-carnitine would be helpful. So more of the DQ!

As to NO, this comes directly from Carmen Wheatley's "Gorilla" paper, so she has postulated a direct connection with adonosyl cobalamin.

My question as to your mention of hydroxocobalamin is whether you know of a direct connection to the reduction of NO, or whether it might be ANY kind of B12 that achieves these results? My impulse would be to go back to Freddd's evaluation of the different forms of B-12 and why he has chosen Me B-12 and Ado B12 as the two that are essential.

If you have any clear answers please keep 'em coming! (Thanks @ahmo!)

Thanks.

 

[Peyt]

My question as to your mention of hydroxocobalamin is whether you know of a direct connection to the reduction of NO, or whether it might be ANY kind of B12 that achieves these results? My impulse would be to go back to Freddd's evaluation of the different forms of B-12 and why he has chosen Me B-12 and Ado B12 as the two that are essential.

If you have any clear answers please keep 'em coming! (Thanks @ahmo!)

Thanks.

Yes, here are a few web sites that have mentioned hydroxocobalamin as a N.O. scavenger:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1468-2982.2002.00412.x/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12230592

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/275/1/48.abstract?cited-by=yes&legid=jpet;275/1/48


I actually got my information from a video I watched from Dr. Ben Lynch that explains the basic 4 kinds of B12:

 

[caledonia]

Detox question...if anyone can weigh in...
I'm taking adenocobalamin now and trying to up it, and I feel like it's really messing with my emotions...almost feel emotionless or just sad
Anyone else? How long?
And having weird pangs in my wrists...wonder what it is?
Thx!

Timely subject. I accidentally took way too much adenosylcobalamin last night. Symptoms were anxious, revved up, warm, sweaty, fast pounding heartbeat, nausea, joint pains (wrists, knees etc.).

I normally take 4mcg per day in four 1mcg doses. I think I took 10mcg in one dose. After a rough night, I feel ok today. However, muscle testing is showing that I shouldn't resume dosing yet.

So anyway, I think you're taking too much and you should back off some until those symptoms ease. There should be a sweet spot where you feel better not worse. Self muscle testing can help you target the right dose without as much trial and error.

 

[ahmo]

@Kathevans Martin Pall includes AdB12 in his list of antioxidants/peroxy scavengers. I used it from time to time when I was in real strife. In fact, folate is also in this list. I used a number of different antioxidants until I found acai, and my body as preferred this.

You'll find a written list of Pall's suggestions in the last 20" of the vid linked in my signature.

 

[Kathevans]

@ahmo Very interesting about acai. Do you eat the berries--freeze dried or some sort of supplement? Are you saying that you don't use the AdoB12 now? With my particular snps, I think I need it, but I'm still waiting on the lower dose tablets to arrive so I can titrate further down. I'm amazed @caledonia that you can get such small doses. Are you getting it in a liquid? I haven't done that much research yet.

Obviously, my body needs a lot of antioxidants. It's reassuring that methylation begins to help this process. And for me the zinc drops I'm slowly titrating up. Right now I just feel I want to take my time and not push as hard as I have been.

I've been a bit of a wreck.

 

[ahmo]

@Kathevans I started w/ an encapsulated acai, then switched to and stay w/ Madre Labs dried/ground organic. unsurprisingly, best deal at iherb.

I'm using AdB12 weekly, as part of Freddd's Protocol. But not using it for antioxidant needs.

My biggest win of 2015 was getting on top of what had been an insatiable need for antioxidants. I'm now needing far less, and suffering far less. My main interventions, aside from the actual antioxidants, were CAndida/SIBO purge, 3-day water fast, and FMN form of B2. I did these things in that order, beginning Jan 2014. Each step helped. And, I found that attempting alternate-day-fasting stressed my adrenals and made me need more antioxidants. tricky, we're so sensitive.

Sorry you've been a bit of a wreck. Definitely take things slowly.

 

[caledonia]

@ahmo Very interesting about acai. Do you eat the berries--freeze dried or some sort of supplement? Are you saying that you don't use the AdoB12 now? With my particular snps, I think I need it, but I'm still waiting on the lower dose tablets to arrive so I can titrate further down. I'm amazed @caledonia that you can get such small doses. Are you getting it in a liquid? I haven't done that much research yet.

Obviously, my body needs a lot of antioxidants. It's reassuring that methylation begins to help this process. And for me the zinc drops I'm slowly titrating up. Right now I just feel I want to take my time and not push as hard as I have been.

I've been a bit of a wreck.

I use liquid sublingual B12 and dilute larger amounts (1000mcg) down to smaller amounts with water. I have the method posted in my document called Start Low and Go Slow in my signature link.