I have a question, please ( Cd4/ Cd8 ratio)

[funkyqueen]

In my case, several times, always too hight...

 

[halcyon]

My ratio was low; CD4 was normal but CD8 was elevated.

 

[heapsreal]

Ratio mostly been normal but cd4 and cd8 numbers always elevated. Most of my cd subsets are elevated.

 

[morse27]

Ratio CD4/CD8 high
CD4 , CD8 and CD52 are always elevated
this balance CD4/CD8 is common in many auto immune diseases, not only in ME/CFS Illness
its normal in gulf war illness sufferers with high level NK lymph of inate immune system (difference with ME/CFS : low NK cell level)

 

[Mij]

CD4, CD8 etc. below normal range, except for NK numbers (not function) at normal range. Ratio increased.

 

[halcyon]

this balance CD4/CD8 is common in many auto immune diseases, not only in ME/CFS Illness

There has not been consistent findings on CD4/CD8 ratio in CFS research. Dedra Buchwald found increased ratio in one study, but the majority of studies actually found decreased ratio, including one where 100% of the patients were decreased.

 

[Gingergrrl]

My CD4 and CD8 were both normal but I am not sure how to figure out the ratio or what this means? I assume I vote "normal" in the poll but do not really understand it!

 

[Kati]

My CD4 and CD8 were both normal but I am not sure how to figure out the ratio or what this means? I assume I vote "normal" in the poll but do not really understand it!

The CD4/CD8 ratio is a simple calculation, usually provided by the lab. If you have a measure of your absolute CD4 and CD8 counts, simply divide: CD4 divided by CD8. The number you obtain is the ratio.

Whether this number is relevant and provide more insight, i don't know. also keep in mind that the numbers you got a year, or more ago may not represent what is actually going on today.
It is a value that can fluctuate throughout the course of the disease, just as CD4 and CD8 fluctuate.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@Kati Thank you and I looked at the labs more carefully and it does give the CD4/CD8 ratio and I don't know how I missed it! My ratio was normal at 2.09 and the range was from 0.80 to 5.00.

 

[Kati]

@Kati Thank you and I looked at the labs more carefully and it does give the CD4/CD8 ratio and I don't know how I missed it! My ratio was normal at 2.09 and the range was from 0.80 to 5.00.

For most of us, we will be within range. HIV patients who have VERY very low CD4 counts wil have a very low ratio, but then the drs would have figured out otherwise that they were indeed very sick.

 

[Ellkaye]

Before ARV treatment :

immunocompromised very low cd3, immunocompromised very low cd4, immunocompromised very low cd8.


With ARV treatment :

immunonormal cd3,
immunonormal cd4,
immunonormal cd8

 

[Ellkaye]

Ratio mostly been normal but cd4 and cd8 numbers always elevated. Most of my cd subsets are elevated.

Elevated normal ?

 

[Ellkaye]

For most of us, we will be within range. HIV patients who have VERY very low CD4 counts wil have a very low ratio, but then the drs would have figured out otherwise that they were indeed very sick.

And if they have very low CD8 (as well as vrry low CD4) what is the impact on their ratio?

 

[funkyqueen]

There's not been consistent findings on CD4/CD8 ratio in CFS research. Dedra Buchwald found increased ratio in one study, but the majority of studies actually found decreased ratio, including one where 100% of the patients were decreased.

Thanks !

This study is, in part, responsible for my question :

Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2015 Nov 28;36(5):439-446. [Epub ahead of print]
Increased expression of activation antigens on CD8+ T lymphocytes in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome: inverse associations with lowered CD19+ expression and CD4+/CD8+ ratio, but no associations with (auto)immune.
[No authors listed]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14535577




Others interestings studies :
http://www.me-ireland.com/scientific/1.immune.htm#20


Extracts from this source :

"
Abnormally high or Low CD4/CD8 ratio and other T cell abnormalities

T-cell helper to T-cell suppressor ratio. Normal ratio for CD4 cell : CD8 cell is 1 : 4. Abnormal ratios suggests immune dysfunction. In ME this depends on :

(i) the existence of subgroups
(ii) the progression of the illness over time in phases (Hornig et al. (2013), Dr. Paul Cheney (3 phases of the illness)
(iii) if the patient is having active infection(s) including opportunistic infections
(iv) whether he/she is in remission or in relapse. And if they have mild, moderate or severe ME.
(iv) the patient's genetic weaknesses
(v) gradual onset ME or rapid onset ? .
"

 

[heapsreal]

If abnormal cd ratio with cfs for greater than 3 years???????

 

[Ellkaye]

Important to distinguish between

COUNT

RATIO

 

[halcyon]

If abnormal cd ratio with cfs for greater than 3 years???????

Mine ratio was low when measured 5 months after onset. Haven't had this test repeated.

@funkyqueen I saw that, new Maes paper (I'm guessing). Probably deserves its own thread.

 

[Ellkaye]

Before ARV treatment :

immunocompromised very low cd3, immunocompromised very low cd4, immunocompromised very low cd8.


With ARV treatment :

immunonormal cd3,
immunonormal cd4,
immunonormal cd8

I voted normal for the cd4/8 ratio.

Normal before arv's and normal after arv's.
0.1 0.2 0.3 fluctuations very very neglible.

All cd3,4,8's increased significantly on arv's and proportionally and equally so, hence the cd4/8 ratio itself didn't ever change that much at all as the cd3,4,8 counts all proportionally improved.

Total white blood cell count (twbcc) was always more or less normal even if sometimes very negligibly/very insignificantly low.
More chance statistically of sometimes having very negligibly/very insignificantly low twbcc if low cd3,4,8 (as in my case)?

Some studies exclude you as a patient if actual blood counts are even just a bit low.

 

[Ellkaye]

if actual twbcc counts are even just a bit low.

 

[Ellkaye]

Ratio mostly been normal but cd4 and cd8 numbers always elevated. Most of my cd subsets are elevated.

Does this have anything to do with th1,th2 shifts? I never understood that