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Relevance of Wessely quotes related to Coyne's critique of PACE

eafw

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Please note the following discussion has been split from the following thread --http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/dr-james-coyne-tackles-the-pace-follow-up-paper.40864/

Is there anyone who has got through the spam filters on Coynes blog that could post this for him ?

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf

Wessely is getting all pally with him, they're betting each other bottles of wine (yeah, glad you're having fun there chaps) "You find a genuine quote from me saying "ME is all in the mind" and i owe you a bottle of wine" says Sir Simon.

We know he's a slippery so-and so, and will try and get out of it by saying that he didn't use that EXACT phrase but some quotes are on record and referenced. From the above document:

“Suggestible patients with a tendency to somatize will continue to be found among sufferers from
diseases with ill-defined symptomatology until doctors learn to deal with them more effectively”


ETA the classic:

“The description given by a leading gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic remains accurate: ‘The average doctor will see they are neurotic and he will often be disgusted with them’

Lots more, and probably worth Coyne reading it to give him a bit more background

ETA2, I'd like to see Wessely held to account for every one of those statements he makes in the mea document. Maybe they could be tweeted one a day with some suitable hashtags
 
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Marco

Grrrrrrr!
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Is there anyone who has got through the spam filters on Coynes blog that could post this for him ?

http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Quotable_Quotes_Updated.pdf

Wessely is getting all pally with him, they're betting each other bottles of wine (yeah, glad you're having fun there chaps) "You find a genuine quote from me saying "ME is all in the mind" and i owe you a bottle of wine" says Sir Simon.

We know he's a slippery so-and so, and will try and get out of it by saying that he didn't use that EXACT phrase but some quotes are on record and referenced. From the above document:

“Suggestible patients with a tendency to somatize will continue to be found among sufferers from
diseases with ill-defined symptomatology until doctors learn to deal with them more effectively”


ETA the classic:

“The description given by a leading gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic remains accurate: ‘The average doctor will see they are neurotic and he will often be disgusted with them’

Lots more, and probably worth Coyne reading it to give him a bit more background

ETA2, I'd like to see Wessely held to account for every one of those statements he makes in the mea document. Maybe they could be tweeted one a day with some suitable hashtags

As I'm sure @Esther12 would agree we do ourselves no favours by using quotes out of context!
 

eafw

Senior Member
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Location
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we do ourselves no favours by using quotes out of context!
I'd be wary of posting quotes that you haven't seen the context for.

How are they out of context ? The context is the mea document I link, which has references for each quote. It is a useful document for anyone new to this and with an interest in the history

more thanks to valentijn's thread

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/simon-wessely-quotes.21025/

Given the clear ethical imperative against lying, what can be left? I suggest the solution is to say little. Is it imperative that the patient be told their illness is truly "all in the mind"? I suspect not.
Wessely S. “To tell or not to tell”: The problem of medically unexplained symptoms. In ; Ethical Dilemmas in Neurology (eds Zeman & Emanuel), WB Saunders, 1999, 41-53
 
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eafw

Senior Member
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Location
UK
There's at least one very badly out of context quote in there. Not a good source, unless you want to go through and find the accurate ones.

Would your thread be a better source ?

ETA, that quote I picked from your thread where he says "all in the mind" seems to have a sound enough context and is exactly what Wessely is claiming he didn't say.
Maybe someone could post the link to that document directly
 
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Would your thread be a better source ?
Yes, the context is given and a full citation and hyperlink. I also excluded any ambiguous statements where they were generalizing about what is said in the field, unless they explicitly endorsed those statements.

But my Wessely quotes page doesn't have a lot from Sharpe, White, etc. If you're looking for something from them, it might be worthwhile to go through the other quotes page to check accuracy of some that sound good.
 
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eafw

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Location
UK
It has the "undeserving sick" quote, even though the context clearly shows he was disagreeing with that characterization.

OK, you meant one of the quotes in the mea doc, not one on my post

But my Wessely quotes page doesn't have a lot from Sharpe, White, etc. If you're looking for something from then, it might be worthwhile to go through the other quotes page to check accuracy of some that sound good.

No, I was specifically looking for something from Wessely to give Coyne that he could use to meet Wessely's twitter challenge, and give him more background and context as to who he is dealing with and what has been said.

This document at least should be a start.

http://www.simonwessely.com/Downloads/Publications/CFS/110.doc
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
The description given by a leading gastroenterologist at the Mayo Clinic remains accurate: ‘The average doctor will see they are neurotic and he will often be disgusted with them’

did SW make that statement? if yes that would be worth a barrel of wine.
 

eafw

Senior Member
Messages
936
Location
UK
Again, out of context.

Then the mea need to pull or seriously revise that document at the link above.

However, as you say plenty with full context such as the other one given, where he states quite clearly he is talking about people with ME

scenario 1 "Madam, your illness is called hysteria" ... scenario 2 "You do not have ME, you may have something called CFS, but even then I do not believe your problems are physical, and I think you are depressed".

"So it is all in my mind, is it doctor?" says the patient threateningly. The correct answer from our truth telling neurologist would of course be "yes", followed by a plaintive "but psychiatric disorders really are genuine illnesses", but by that time the doctor will be addressing an empty room, since the patient may well have left in disgust.


Wessely S. “To tell or not to tell”: The problem of medically unexplained symptoms. In ; Ethical Dilemmas in Neurology (eds Zeman & Emanuel), WB Saunders, 1999, 41-53
 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
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Location
Near Cognac, France
No need to apologise at all. Did I sound narky? If so, I'm just frazzled from trying to keep up with PACE news.

Think others have responded to quotes questions.

Not at all - I just didn't want to suggest it was you who had talked about out of context quotes if I'd got it wrong.

I seem to remember the 'average doctor' quote was a rhetorical device Simon used to illustrate the negative attitude the medical profession had to 'MUS's' and why his more enlightened input was so valuable (sic).
 

chipmunk1

Senior Member
Messages
765
INVITED REVIEW The act of diagnosis: pros and cons of labelling chronic fatigue syndrome

MARCUS J. H. HUIBERS1* AND SIMON WESSELY

Many CFS patients, particularly in hospital
settings, share a strong conviction that their
symptoms are physical in nature. A plausible
explanation is that biological illness attributions
provide legitimacy, alleviate personal respons-
ibility and protect against stigma (Horton-
Salway, 2001), as opposed to psychosocial ill-
ness attributions. As a result, CFS patients
will seek doctors who offer explanations in
keeping with their own illness beliefs.


Psychosocial and cultural factors
CFS is a mirror of society. Since the first reports
of a mysterious fatigue syndrome in the early
1980s, sociologists have depicted CFS as a
post-modern illness of our time (Ware, 1999;
Zavestoski et al. 2004). Others have noted
the striking resemblance between CFS and
neurasthenia, a 19th-century diagnosis tha
became unfashionable and disappeared from
clinical practice.

Like it or not, CFS is
not simply an illness, but a cultural phenom-
enon and metaphor of our times

Consequently, many CFS patients encounter
doubts, disbelief and rejection when consulting
their physician, and feel the reality of their
symptoms is denied. The search for diagnosis
then turns into a contest over diagnosis. This
battle may contribute to the course of illness: if
you have to prove you are ill, you cannot get
well (Hadler, 1996)

Without doubt, some doctors are annoyed by the perception of a patient-initiated
transgression into the sick role
. Medical trainees
(Jason et al. 2001) and qualified doctors (Steven
et al. 2000) alike judge CFS primarily to be a
psychological or psychiatric problem.

sounds very much like it is not all in the head.
 
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