Eye Symptoms from Methylation Supps?

[Kathevans]

I know Freddd says that much of what we ascribe to detox is actually either a Folate or a Potassium deficiency. My eyes have long been dry and scratchy at night and occasionally red-rimmed and weepy during the day, and react with mostly lid puffiness to many things from Tylenol to mineral supps that cause a lot of detox for me, like selenium, and even zinc, which I’ve been increasing.

With the introduction of methylation they seem to have gotten worse. For a little over a month I've increased my MeB12 , along with the Folate, in a roughly 2:1 ratio currently (500mcg MeB12: 200mcg Folate). Yesterday, I upped the dose to 1,000mcg MeB12 and 400mcg Folate and, while I expected worse sleep, I also woke with much puffier eyes this morning.

I’ve used a rinse at night to alleviate this symptom—each time I get up to pee, which is every couple of hours (believe it or not, my sleep is better on the methyls!)—but now, some of that stickiness is creeping into my day.

(I feel like whack-a-mole with all these symptoms?! )

I’ve made an appointment to see the opthamologist next week, but any of you who’ve made progress on methylation know I don’t really want to backtrack—every time I do my pain is worse.

In case this plays into it at all, I’m now taking Nature Made B-complex, which has very low Bs:

Vitamin C 300 mg
Thiamin 15 mg
Riboflavin 10.2 mg
Niacin 50 mg
Vitamin B6 5 mg (plus an additional 25 mg p5p from pure encapsulations)
Pantothenic Acid 10 mg

Could these eye issues relate to my detoxification pathways and possibly not doing enough work on them prior to starting the methyls?

Any thoughts?

 

[ahmo]

@Kathevans My only thought is based on my own symptom pattern. When my adrenals are stressed, I get puffiness in face and under eyes, some scaly skin in upper and lower lids. Why would my adrenals be stressed? Detox: liver congestion backs up to cause adrenal stress. Increased methylation can lead to incre4ased detox. My solution: coffee enemas. Also, when I was on high dose folate (30mg) my adrenals eventually forced me to take notice, and do something different.

Here's a current thread re dry eyes:

 

[Kathevans]

@ahmo I had a feeling you were going to suggest those coffee enemas! A few years ago I did them weekly for about six months and at that point I don't remember what I thought! Wasn't keeping a journal at the time...I'll have to order more of that wonderful Wilson's coffee!

I tend to think it's detox, myself. I had an incredible over-the-top reaction to one drop of selenium when ppodhajski was posting about those selenoprotein snps. Puffy swollen eyes, heavy sleep one night, totally unlike me, followed by absolutely no sleep the next...whoah!

I guess I have a way to go. Thanks for the link! (Woops, I can't get it to work...)

 

[ahmo]

.I'll have to order more of that wonderful Wilson's coffee!

I had an incredible over-the-top reaction to one drop of selenium

Thanks for the link! (Woops, I can't get it to work...)

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ondition-whose-patients-arent-believed.39965/

 

[Kathevans]

Very good link. Nice to have that info before going to the doc. Thanks, @ahmo.

It occurs to me that the alterna doc I saw in NYC had me take what he called detox baths. These included 2 cups of Kosher Salt/ I 16 oz container of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide/ 1box Baking soda(to keep skin from getting too dry). I took these 3-4 x/week for a couple of years. It occurs to me that I might reinstitute them as another detox mode, or interchange with the Epsom Salt baths I really love.

 

[Violeta]

B2 deficiency might be what is causing your eye problems. Especially if it has been brought on by a methylation protocol. Have you read the B2 I Love You thread?

Puffy eyelids might be bleptharitis,(sp?) another symptom that can be relieved by B2.

 

[whodathunkit]

@ahmo I had a feeling you were going to suggest those coffee enemas!

Now *why on earth* would you think that?

Seriously, I wish I had some advice to offer re: dry eyes, but I don't. I got a pretty bad case of scaly eyelids for a while before I finally got stable on Freddd's protocol, but I don't recall my actual eyeballs being particularly dry, and the eyelid thing has been a come and go symptom for me for decades that I think it may be immune related because I get eczema in other places, too. Although as @ahmo notes it might be adrenals. Hard to say, as I have likely had adrenal problems my whole life, even if they were only formally diagnosed via saliva test five or so years ago.

Wondering though...how come so much niacin? Niacin is a no-go for me and causes me to get symptoms of folate deficiency/methyltrap. Do you do worse without supplemental niacin? I seem to get all the niacin I need from food even when I high-dose supplement all the other B's. Just sayin' in case niacin might be playing into your problem somehow.

 

[Irwin]

I got dry eyes last time I used methyl b12...

Definitely, methyl b12 is not for me. I really think I have dopamine problems, COMT or whatever issues. I don't flush using 100mg niacin, almost die using just one tablet of multi with coenzymated vitamins, have prolactin higher than usual etc.
The last time I used methyl b12 (I use Super B12, half hydroxo half methyl), I used 2mg (1mg hydro + 1mg methyl) plus 400mcg methyl folate, I got severe diarrhea, super lack of motivation, leg cramps (ok, this is lack of potassium, my fault), and dry eyes.

The reason I think the methyl is causing this, not the hydroxo, is because I analyzed my symptoms, plus the fact I have similar side effects using 1 tablet of source naturals life force multi, that contains mB12, MSM plus other methyl stuffs. I'll order pure hydroxocobalamin and adenosyl, let's begin the tests. Ah, I also ordered 23andme stuff.

 

[Kathevans]

Ok. Let's see. @Violeta. Yes, I certainly need more B2. I was taking much more and probably having fewer problems with my eyes, but they came wrapped up in a B-complex which was causing problems, so as I got off it, I haven't yet taken the opportunity to replace what is now missing. I think I've read much of that particular thread, but want to revisit it. Thanks for the reminder. I really try to add one thing at a time because when I do more, I'm really sunk as to cause and effect...

@whodathunkit. I was actually told my both my alterna doc and my PCP to add niacinimide up to 1,000mg/day, that I was deficient. From the alternadoc's pov, it related to very high quinolinic acid, which related to inflammation and neural excitotoxicity and could be helped by probiotics (yes), adding carnitine (not yet, still on increasing B12 and Folate), melatonin (little bits I'm beginning to tolerate), garlic (well, some), inositol hexaniacinate--haven't tried this last yet. There also seems to be some relationship to B-6 deficiency, and because I also have oxalate issues, I started with larger doses of that--currently 25 mg of p5p/day. And in any case, knowing that niacin stops methylation, which I totally agree, we are trying to encourage, I haven't added all that. Is 150 mg niacin that much??

@Irwin The MeB12 seems a necessity for me because it does so much to reduce pain. I'm up to 500mcg/day and about 200 mcg/day of the Folate. Pain-wise, these have begun to show great promise, but you are certainly right. The methylation DOES EFFECT my eyes. As well as another symptom I've written about recently, my stomach. There is definitely a relationship between my lymphatic system, methylation and these symptoms.

Not to cross my two posts--the other:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...supplements-and-stress-all-intertwined.39851/

but yesterday when I took about 1/4 Betaine HCL at lunch time, roughly 160 mg, within a few hours, my eyes were more watery, the lids red-rimmed, and by later in the evening while sitting at a lovely independent film with my husband, I commented to him that I was feeling 'overwrought'. We were watching a very gentle film and I was emotionally over-the-top, felt all this inner pressure. By bedtime, I had a headache and what I call my 'tight face' as if I'm making some horrible face and all the muscles ache. I've always associated these feelings as a folate block, or paradoxical folate insufficiency. My body needs more. But to absorb more, I'd have to take more MeB-12 and ultimately, that way lies sleeplessness...until I gradually get used to the doses and nudge my body higher every couple of weeks. The alternative is to take niacin to stop the over-methylation that is going on.

I didn't think of that last night, though, and I was awake much of it. Not uncomfortable. Just wide awake, reading. My stomach was more settled and my eyes less dry and scratchy. But I'm having one of those extremely tired days, slogging to do what must be done, no smile on my face, a little crabby to the people I love.

I was thinking today of a visit to a past pcp a couple of years ago. I mentioned several symptoms I wanted him to check and his response was, "Well, which do you want to focus on today? You can come back another time for your crunchy knees." My response, "I think they're all related."

And indeed, the more I get into this, the more I think they are. As I was reading threads last night, I came across the term "methylation disease." I suppose this is what happens when our bodies, our environmental stressors and our genetic snps collide under duress. It's certainly what happened to mine many years ago.

Now I'm trying to unravel it all with the terrific assistance offered here. It's an arduous process.

 

[Kathevans]

Truth to tell, there's still so much here that I don't understand at all; and even when I think I do, the next day I may well have forgotten it, or confused it with something else. I was an English major, for goodness sake. !

@ahmo Thinking of detox and the liver, I have had times recently of feeling slightly nauseated and a tenderness in my liver area. I'm using bentonite clay, the Sonnes #7, I think it is, daily in the morning to scavenge all the toxins that have been accumulating overnight. Then I begin anew. Probably another reason to return to the coffee enemas.

AND, talking about detox. I came across an interesting tidbit about dry eye on the internet last night--a suggestion to use Organic Castor Oil in a sterilized dropper. She said it helped the lymphatic system related to the eye to cleanse better. It sounded very Edgar Cayce, but I have tried the castor oil packs briefly in the past. My most vivid memory: very messy! There are many links, this is but one:

The link: http://drcarolyndean.com/2010/09/the-eyes-have-it/

 

[Violeta]

Kathevans, you should be a writer.

 

[Tunguska]

Found taurine helps a little, some links to eye health, one or two success stories here and there: http://www.dryeyezone.com/talk/showthread.php?20317-UPDATE-eyes-are-nearly-free-of-all-red-veins!!!!

However gram doses eventually affect neurotransmitters regulation as well, so best cycled.

(Edit: oh and ensure adequate magnesium and potassium with it)

 

[Violeta]

Found taurine helps a little, some links to eye health, one or two success stories here and there: http://www.dryeyezone.com/talk/showthread.php?20317-UPDATE-eyes-are-nearly-free-of-all-red-veins!!!!

However gram doses eventually affect neurotransmitters regulation as well, so best cycled.

(Edit: oh and ensure adequate magnesium and potassium with it)

Wow, very nice link, thank you, @Tunguska !

 

[Calathea]

The Dry Eye Zone linked to above is excellent. I fully recommend it, including the forum there. Go and learn all about what's going on with dry eyes, how they work. There are three different types of moisture produced in the eye, for instance. Oil, water, can't remember the third. Any of those could be malfunctioning.

My mother had a very serious eye problem, and I have milder Dry Eye Syndrome. I'm on some meds that affect it along with my saliva production, antihistamines for instance. Taking Omega 3 oils, algae oil in my case adas I'm veggie, helps a bit. I also use eye drops daily, though I'm blanking on the name (there are many to try). My optometrist at one point had me doing warm compresses. This meant running a flannel/washcloth under a hottest tap, squeezing out most of the water, and putting them over my eyes for 15 min. I ran him in a panic to say my vision was blurry for a while afterwards, and he said that's normal, it's because it's stimulated the oil glands.

I find that most things labelled "detox" are nonsense, unless we're talking something like acute withdrawal from alcohol, the sort in a hospital setting. It's a buzzword attached to a lot of snake oil. A proper method to treat DES should be able to discuss its action properly, in terms of known physiology, rather than resorting to words like "detox".

Glare from computer devices may make a difference, especially at night, especially because folks with ME are known to be more sensitive in this way. You can try adjusting screen brightness, using screen filter apps and so forth, even tinted glasses. Fluorescent light is a known problem for many people with ME, I'm not sure whether having that in your home can affect eye dryness, but anything causing eyestrain can be a factor. Straining to read print that's smaller than I can cope with certainly makes my eyes feel worse. I'm currently reading this on a tablet with the font size bumped up and a grey on black colour scheme, plus a filter which reduces blue light, and the orange glasses I wear at night to block blue light and protect melatonin production - hooray for modern tech!

Visual problems in ME are known to be both neurological and muscular, if that's any help, and the ME Research UK magazine has published some info about research on them which they'd be happy to email you, I'm sure.

 

[Kathevans]

I'm currently reading this on a tablet with the font size bumped up and a grey on black colour scheme, plus a filter which reduces blue light, and the orange glasses I wear at night to block blue light and protect melatonin production - hooray for modern tech!

Great suggestions, here! When I read a book at night, I always turn the page to black, the text to white, and it definitely helps, lowers the brain stimulus. And I've read about the glasses but haven't looked them up. I hear they're on Amazon. In fact, yes, they are, and cheap, too: http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S1933X-Eyewear-SCT-Orange-Anti-Fog/dp/B000USRG90 I need all the melatonin I can get.

As to the idea of detox, I know it can sound spurious, but there are certainly things going on with my body that sometimes appear like what you might call 'detox'. There is, of course, Freddd's truth that with methylation, often what people call 'detox' is actually a need for higher folate or potassium; there's also, perhaps an over-taxed lymphatic system--ie why do my eye symptoms get worse with the addition of zinc to my diet (I can feel excess dry, scratchiness, really); or why do my eyes get very weepy when I take more methyl donors like the MeB12 or Folate; why do my eyelids get un-puffy when I eat sugar or too many carbs, as if, strangely, whatever has taken up residence there, has beat a hasty retreat to feed on something tasty in my gut; and there's also the issue of allergy or sensitivity--I cannot take Aleve or its stronger prescription cousin, Naproxen, without getting an overly puffy eye that lasts for days. Even on the bottle there is a warning that says if this happens, DON'T take it again. Too bad because it was a great pain killer!

I know I risk sounding like a nut with some of these symptoms, but I've had years to observe my body--so much more than I thought I ever would...or, certainly so much more than I would want to!

I have read a number of very good links posted here, and am glad to report that I've ordered at least one new bottle of eye drops--the Similusan, which I know some will have objections to because it's homeopathic. But until I see the opthalmologist on Friday, I want to be safe and I've read that some of the preservatives in eye drops can cause a worsening of the problem...and who knows how many different names this preservative goes by?

Lastly, @Violetta. In the spirit of not being coy, I am a writer. Not as much of one as I would like to be, but you can see what's gotten in my way. I've published a couple of non-fiction pieces in magazines and have been working on a cycle of stories for, well, I don't even want to say how long. Yikes! I hope I finish them one of these days and can find someone who'd care to publish them.

I've lost a lot, but I haven't lost my ability to dream...on a good day, anyway!

 

[Violeta]

Very good article about supplements that are good for the eyes. I don't know if any of them would be affected by methylation supplements, though. Methylation should provide more glutathione, is that correct? Is something back firing when it brings on eye symptoms?

http://www.tahomaclinicblog.com/prevent-stop-or-reverse-vision-loss/

 

[Kathevans]

@Violetta I assume methylation would improve glutathione levels, though I'm not the person to respond to that more fully! Theoretically, if you get those co-factors lined up along with the Deadlock Quartet, all the wheels should start cranking the way they should. But then, that's a big IF!

The link is terrific: "So I did a lot of reading about nutrients and the eye, and learned that the retina has particularly high concentrations of zinc and taurine, too. I added these nutrients to selenium and vitamin E, and there were fewer treatment failures."

Vitamin E has long been part of my routine. I recently began taking zinc where I hadn't been taking any. Thus, maybe it's not a surprise to notice 'something' going on in my eyes as a result of taking it. I haven't tried taurine yet as I am often very sensitive to amino acids. As to the selenium connection, this is very interesting. I'm also very sensitive to selenium...which may mean I need to work at it at very low, titrated doses over months, like so much else.

Also a lot of good herbal additions as well as an over-all supp they seem to have developed. So much to look into...

Thanks for this.

 

[garyfritz]

Straining to read print that's smaller than I can cope with certainly makes my eyes feel worse. I'm currently reading this on a tablet with the font size bumped up and a grey on black colour scheme, plus a filter which reduces blue light, and the orange glasses I wear at night to block blue light and protect melatonin production - hooray for modern tech!.

I highly recommend a free app called f.lux, https://justgetflux.com/ -- it slowly adjusts the color spectrum of your screen as the sun sets, greatly reducing the blue content.

I've had problems with eye infections and blepharitis for several years -- roughly since I started having B12 issues, hmmm. For a while I was waking up with eyes full of goop (so I could barely see) and crusty eyelashes. Along with occasional antibiotics and mild steroidal drops to treat acute infections, my ophthalmologist recommended I use OcuSoft eyelid scrub pads. He says many cases of blepharitis are caused by Demodex eyelid mites, which live in everybody's eyelashes but cause more problems for some people. Keeping the lids clean makes for a less favorable environment for Demodex. I find steaming my eyes in a hot morning shower, then cleaning my crusty lids with OcuSoft pads, makes a big difference.

 

[Kathevans]

So, the opthalmologist says my issue is nothing more complex than dry eye, but that, as I read on one of the posts here, the preservative in many items can make the situation worse. Best, she said, to keep to preservative-free drops of whatever sort. She recommended Refresh. Two other procedures also seemed worthwhile. To keep the oil glands in both upper and lower lids free of blockages, use Baby Shampoo once or twice a day to wash your lids. My husband did this after successful cataract surgery in one eye, followed some time after by the other. The other thing the opthalmologist suggested was to put dry, uncooked rice in a sock, put it in the microwave to heat it up--I found about 50 seconds does it in mine--and place the sock on your lids for 5 or 10 minutes. This keeps the oil flowing apparently. In some of us the oil tends to be thicker and this can be problematic...

Hope these approaches are helpful to some!