• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Biochemistry input on sleep question?--Orexin

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
I just read an article about orexin and sleep. It seems that orexin (a neurotransmitter, I believe) supports wakefulness and that orexin inhibitors or antagonists, allow the brain to let go and sleep. Pharmaceutical companies are developing sleep meds using this pathway: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120726/Insomnia-an-interview-with-Dr-Darryle-Schoepp.aspx

So, I'm wondering about natural ways to inhibit orexin or block its receptors. Here is one article I found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orexin

To quote from it:

Orexin increases the craving for food, and correlates with the function of the substances that promote its production.
Leptin is a hormone produced by fat cells and acts as a long-term internal measure of energy state. Ghrelin is a short-term factor secreted by the stomach just before an expected meal, and strongly promotes food intake.
Orexin-producing cells have recently been shown to be inhibited by leptin (through the leptin receptor pathway), but are activated by ghrelin and hypoglycemia (glucose inhibits orexin production). Orexin, as of 2007, is claimed to be a very important link between metabolism and sleep regulation.[citation needed] Such a relationship has been long suspected, based on the observation that long-term sleep deprivation in rodents dramatically increases food intake and energy metabolism,...

Does anyone with knowledge of biochemistry have ideas about how we might use this pathway (hopefully through food or supplements) to help us with sleep?

Best sleep wishes!
Sushi
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Sleep chemistry has advanced a lot in the last decade. I used to know a lot about this stuff - a whole decade ago. There is no substitute for being up to date on this. Some good review papers on sleep chemistry might help put this research in perspective. Its worth noting tht eating often makes people sleepy. Its entirely possible that using this research a late night snack that enhances sleep initiation might be developed. It would be entirely experimental however.

My best guess is that other nutritional factors should be included. One on my list would be magnesium to counter any NMDA overactivation.

Bye, Alex
 

Crux

Senior Member
Messages
1,441
Location
USA
Hi Y'all;

This is out of my league, but here I am, poking a nose in.

Apparently, zinc has some orexigenic properties. It helps stimulate appetite in that way.

But in other ways, such as with melatonin production, etc., it may help with sleep.

I find that if I take too much of it, I can become very sleepy, and fatigued. So, I'm trying to nail down the amount that is just right...

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2009/01/21/jn.108.096370.full.pdf
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,089
Location
australia (brisbane)
Sleep chemistry has advanced a lot in the last decade. I used to know a lot about this stuff - a whole decade ago. There is no substitute for being up to date on this. Some good review papers on sleep chemistry might help put this research in perspective. Its worth noting tht eating often makes people sleepy. Its entirely possible that using this research a late night snack that enhances sleep initiation might be developed. It would be entirely experimental however.

My best guess is that other nutritional factors should be included. One on my list would be magnesium to counter any NMDA overactivation.

Bye, Alex

Cough medicine with dextromethorphan is said to be an NMDA antagonist. I can say it doesnt help me sleep but does help for nerve type pain and studies have been done with this med on fibro with good results. One thing i read about it is that it can reduce tolerance to benzos??

Orexin and food cravings sounds interesting as i have had night where i have used meds and couldnt sleep but then get the munchies have some carbs and then i fall asleep. So i have noticed an increase in apetitte when sleep deprived.

I cant wait until they start to bring out some more different sleep meds other then just benzo type meds.

cheers!!!
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Orexin and food cravings sounds interesting as i have had night where i have used meds and couldnt sleep but then get the munchies have some carbs and then i fall asleep. So i have noticed an increase in apetitte when sleep deprived.
cheers!!!

Yes, I occasionally wake up in the night "starving" and if I eat a snack, can sleep again. Course there could be some other mechanisms involved too. Still, this might lead to some better sleep meds. The article says that one is likely to be released in a year or two. Course, they will charge the max!

Sushi
 

Seven7

Seven
Messages
3,444
Location
USA
@Sushi, this is so funny I was looking in Google and you were the first to come up (this thread) about natural substitute for Orexin blockers.

First was glucose (not so good) but if one cannot sleep would be nice to try before sleep to see if it helps.
Berverine is the other option but I am afraid because is a inmune booster so don't react good to those.

Has any one used berverine and have good sleep ???

By the way the more I read about Orexin and all my symptoms the more it makes more sense the issue goes that way. It ties even the over production of neuropineprhine, sleep issues, increase appetite.....
 

geraldt52

Senior Member
Messages
602
Doesn't Belsomra work on orexin? I thought I saw a thread on that med...
It does. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/fda-approves-new-type-of-sleep-drug-belsomra.31990/
There is a 10 tablet free trial of Belsomra available in the U.S. ....I would think that that's the best way to figure out if an orexin antagonist will work for a particular individual. If the drug doesn't work, somehow I doubt that a natural orexin antagonist is going to work, but if the drug does work then maybe a supplement might be helpful, without as many side effects?
 
Messages
2
I just started trial Belsomra 7 dys ago.
Absolutely fantastic.
I used to start with melatonin. .. Then benadryl. .. Then codeine.
Even then I would wake up at 2am.
Could NEVER touch caffeine or pay the price of no sleep for 2 or more days.
Motion sickness pills work sometimes but leave you drugged for the following day.

So now Belsomra... sleeping from 9:30 to5:30 like clock work.
A little too tired in the mornings. But I work construction. Once I engage in work and and being physically active then all is good.

One caution. When I started I was taking DIM.
FOR 2 days I was completely not able to function at all. .. completely messed up ! Found that DIM reduces CYP3A4...same path that Belsomra uses for metabolism out of system. So I was being over loaded . Got off of DIM and cut back on dose to 1/2 15mg tab.
Now doing great !

I have faught sleep since a kid.
Belsomra is helping with hypertension too.

I too would like to know of any natural ways to suppress the Orex surplus I seem to have.
Someone mentioned glucose. ... yep I did that some : wake up at night and eat a hand full of Smarties wirh a glass of water. Sometimes it helps. But really this is not a NATURAL a Orexin modifier. Chunking down glucose is not necessarily healthy.

I have tried them all. No other sleep aid works. Belsomra really does it for me.
Would like to use natural if out there somewhere.