High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

[xks201]

Allithiamine makes me smell like crazy though it helps quite a bit. Especially above 2 pills. The hydrogen sulfide gas produced in me taking this which has been linked to chronic fatigue potentially aggravates the fatigue. How do you handle that smell? It is out of control like a skunk smell on top of having sulfur breath and everything else from the allithiamine sulfur molecule which gets metabolized by gut bacteria into what I would think would be toxic h2s(hydrogen sulfide). On the same token though it does seem to help more than benfo or any other form of b1 I have tried which is pretty much all of them available in the US at least including sulbutiamine.

 

[presently_distant]

Allithiamine makes me smell like crazy though it helps quite a bit. Especially above 2 pills. The hydrogen sulfide gas produced in me taking this which has been linked to chronic fatigue potentially aggravates the fatigue. How do you handle that smell? It is out of control like a skunk smell on top of having sulfur breath and everything else from the allithiamine sulfur molecule which gets metabolized by gut bacteria into what I would think would be toxic h2s(hydrogen sulfide). On the same token though it does seem to help more than benfo or any other form of b1 I have tried which is pretty much all of them available in the US at least including sulbutiamine.

I tried Allithiamine briefly (2-3 days) and the negative side effects it gave me did not make the positive effects worth it. I am interested in Sulbutiamine as there are tons of positive reports from users on longecity.com and other similar nootropic/biohacking forums. But, what always seems to happen when I take forms of thiamin that work well is that I get really lucid sleep (which is good for those who want it!)...but for me it's akin to very restless, unfulfilling sleep. Sleep, in which I don't get to those deep, regenerative stages. This is certainly due to thiamin increasing acetylcholine in the brain. Not against feeling sharper during the day but I love feeling rested after sleep... So I'm not quite sure if maybe I just need to take smaller doses of thiamin or what ...

 

[xks201]

I tried Allithiamine briefly (2-3 days) and the negative side effects it gave me did not make the positive effects worth it. I am interested in Sulbutiamine as there are tons of positive reports from users on longecity.com and other similar nootropic/biohacking forums. But, what always seems to happen when I take forms of thiamin that work well is that I get really lucid sleep (which is good for those who want it!)...but for me it's akin to very restless, unfulfilling sleep. Sleep, in which I don't get to those deep, regenerative stages. This is certainly due to thiamin increasing acetylcholine in the brain. Not against feeling sharper during the day but I love feeling rested after sleep... So I'm not quite sure if maybe I just need to take smaller doses of thiamin or what ...

And it makes your sweat smell and breath and stool smell as allithiamine, correct? I think slightly disturbed sleep is probably one of the smallest side effects of allithiamine. Unless of course you were just taking 1 pill or something per day (50mg), to which I don't think you could effectively tie any real cause and effect to over just 3 days with such a small dose.

 

[presently_distant]

And it makes your sweat smell and breath and stool smell as allithiamine, correct? I think slightly disturbed sleep is probably one of the smallest side effects of allithiamine. Unless of course you were just taking 1 pill or something per day (50mg), to which I don't think you could effectively tie any real cause and effect to over just 3 days with such a small dose.

I did smell some of that sulfury, garlic allithiamine scent in my breath and stool. It was pretty bad, I have to admit. Although it dissipated quite fast after cessation of use. But, I imagine for a chronic user it'd get unbearable. Can't even imagine using the allithiamine cream, it really smells disgusting.

 

[presently_distant]

I'm still very interested in thiamine as a potential avenue to some sort of physical and cognitive recovery. I believe I've had a thiamine deficiency to some degree for a few years now. Always have eaten a very high sugar diet until a year ago.

I recently tried Sulbutiamine from a bulk supplier (it's a form of B1 that can cross the BBB much easier than traditional forms). I believe it was $10 for 25 grams. At first I didn't feel much of anything, even while supplementing several capsules of magnesium taurate. My dosage of sulbutiamine is 400mg in the morning. Will increase this to a gram if I see results...

Then I realized this is a fat soluble form of thiamin and as such, needs to be taken with a fat like coconut oil or liquid fish oil. Implementing this has greatly improved absorption and I really felt some sort of difference in the effect it had on my energy levels and cognition. I also tried to improve intercellular magnesium absorption/utilization by taking one 50mg tab of p5p with 2 caps of mag taurate an hour before the sulbutiamine (and subsequently 25-50 mg zinc gluconate to help with p5p utilization).

It fascinates me to no end the interconnectedness all these nutrients and minerals have throughout the body. I believe I even read somewhere that manganese helps with "intractable magnesium deficiency".

 

[dannybex]

hi Danny

Who knows which study is more accurate, but I've been taking 1500 mg's of thiamine HCL lately. I tried it on it's own awhile back with no great effects, but I am seeing good progress when I couple the thiamine with riboflavin.

Another followup: I mentioned 4-5 months ago that high thiamine will deplete riboflavin, and as my eyes/siniuses have been getting worse in the last few days I realized I'd backed off of the riboflavin.

Riboflavin is needed for MAO to work properly to help break down amines (including histamine), and just found this study that showed that 400 mgs of thiamine caused a 'general drop' in MAO activity:

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1982-07351-001

 

[presently_distant]

I tried taking 40 mg r5p with 300mg of benfotiamine and 50mg p5p yesterday. I only got 4 hours of sleep and I feel close to my usual norm. Will be taking a nap, anyways, though!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I thought to add here a list of meds/supps interactions with B1

http://www.newbodydiet.com/nutrition/vitamins/vitaminB1/vitaminB1-thiamin-interactions.html

Very interesting is that THYROID HORMONE for those who take a replacement like me can lower B1 stores in the liver. Then eating high quercetin foods (like berries or unpeeled apples) can worsen the situation.

@picante @ahmo @dannybex

 

[Gondwanaland]

Another very informative link about thiamine:
http://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/link-suggestion/wpcd_2008-09_augmented/wp/t/Thiamin.htm

 

[Lynn]

Riboflavin is needed for MAO to work properly to help break down amines (including histamine), and just found this study that showed that 400 mgs of thiamine caused a 'general drop' in MAO activity:

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1982-07351-001

@dannybex
Interesting. I take armour thyroid for hypothyroid symptoms. I also definitely run into histamine intolerance problems (hives) while taking high dose thiamine. Do you think taking Riboflavin will help with that? What dose would you suggest.

Lynn

 

[dannybex]

Jeez, I don't even remember posting that (thank you mushy brain). But yes, I'm guessing that riboflavin would help, but that's a guess, and not sure what dose would be appropriate. Some have had their food intolerances go away with sufficient thyroid, for example, this woman:

https://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/i-am-no-longer-sensitive-to-amines/

Check out her bio on the right hand side of the page...

 

[Gondwanaland]

Jeez, I don't even remember posting that (thank you mushy brain).

And I didn't remember of reading and even liking that! So THAT is why I get rashes from B1

 

[Gondwanaland]

Some have had their food intolerances go away with sufficient thyroid, for example, this woman:

https://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/i-am-no-longer-sensitive-to-amines/

Check out her bio on the right hand side of the page...

Thanks for the interesting link

 

[ahmo]

@dannybex
Interesting. I take armour thyroid for hypothyroid symptoms. I also definitely run into histamine intolerance problems (hives) while taking high dose thiamine. Do you think taking Riboflavin will help with that? What dose would you suggest.

Lynn

When I started taking FMN form of riboflavin, I no longer needed any of my antihistamine, mast cell supps. 18mg Source Naturals FMN. I wrote about my experiences taking it, linked in my sig.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I am a bit obsessed with B1, so I am adding some more info about it here:
A monograph (haven't read it yet)
And more general info:

Thiamine is lost in cooking and is depleted by use of sugar, coffee, tannin from black teas, nicotine, and alcohol, so it is necessary to insure that intake of thiamine is an optimal level.
(...)
Thiamin may enhance circulation, helps with blood formation and the metabolism of carbohydrates. It is also required for the health of the nervous system and is used in the biosynthesis of a number of cell constituents, including the neurotransmitter acetylcholine and gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA). It is used in the manufacture of hydrochloric acid, and therefore plays a part in digestion.

 

[Gondwanaland]

There is info on thiamine spread thru many threads, so it is hard to keep everything in a single place. I am adding here another link with a very interesting series of postings about thiamine (brought to my attention by @picante ), esp. its relations with adrenal health (@drob31 )
http://synergyhw.blogspot.com.br/2015/04/the-importance-of-addressing-thiamine.html

My notes:
A low carb diet spares the B1 used in glycolysis
A high carb diet needs a lot of B1 in glycolysis
A low carb diet is poor in B1
A high carb diet can create B1 absorption problems
B1 is needed to activate B2 into R5P
B1 is needed in all cell types to reduce lactate levels created esp. by high carb diets
Low B1 can lead to insulin resistance

 

[picante]

I thought to add here a list of meds/supps interactions with B1

http://www.newbodydiet.com/nutrition/vitamins/vitaminB1/vitaminB1-thiamin-interactions.html

Very interesting is that THYROID HORMONE for those who take a replacement like me can lower B1 stores in the liver. Then eating high quercetin foods (like berries or unpeeled apples) can worsen the situation.

@picante @ahmo @dannybex

That article mentions thyroxine (T4), but not liothyronine sodium (T3).

 

[picante]

I am a bit obsessed with B1, so I am adding some more info about it here:
A monograph (haven't read it yet)
And more general info:

The monograph is not found when I click on it. This from the general info:

People suffering from depression or anxiety and those passing large volumes of urine, or suffering from an infection may all require more thiamine.

I'm still having pee sprees ("polyuria", if you must). Taking 150-300 mg Benfotiamine daily. Since I'm treating glutamate toxicity, I'm taking lots of magnesium, too (75 mg Mag threonate + transdermal Mg chloride spray and sometimes a bit of liquid ionic mag).

That's hardly high-dose for thiamine, but before I increase I'd like to find out whether years of T3-only thyroid med is likely to deplete thiamine.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The monograph is not found when I click on it.

Here it is

 

[Gondwanaland]

So many threads on thiamine...

The adverse effects reported at the top of this page are probably related to an increased need for manganese and B6 to form GABA and process sulfur. Obviously B2 is also needed (+magnesium, Potassium). in some of his texts Dr. Lonsdale says that B1 isn't supposed to be taken in isolation since it is part of a bigger picture (think Citric Acid Cycle).