Cellular Energy Metabolism: Simplified chart and B vitamins

[Gondwanaland]

Source: http://www.health-science-spirit.com/HF5-2.html

 

[ahmo]

this is simplified???

 

[Critterina]

Sort of makes sense that when I was B6 deficient, I was also not digesting dietary protein, just my quadriceps.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Also explains why I became salicylate intolerant due to high uric acid after too much folate...

 

[Critterina]

And I like the combination of B2 (my greatest need per NutrEval), Biotin (a recognized need from before all this) and nicotinamide (NADH is a lifesaver - with D-ribose - when I get cold and can't warm up for days): All this is necessary for fatty acid metabolism. I just started back on the B2. I need to take the NADH more seriously, with winter coming.

 

[Kathevans]

I think we need a reprise! I just found this last night in my wanderings. It's really terrific. Thanks all!

Now if I can just understand it! (I've gone to the source and copied that out, too...) :thumbdown: (is this a 'head scratch' or 'thumbs down' as my curser seems to indicate? I need a 'head scratch')

 

[Gondwanaland]

Same chart from another point of view (thanks to Jamie_S):

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Amino_acid_catabolism_revised.png

 

[Changexpert]

It looks like this diagram has been updated with a few changes from the old one. This is a very helpful diagram indeed, but I still am not sure about how these vitamins/cofactors help with carb/fat/protein metabolism. For instance, if one has a problem with fatty acid metabolism, would taking biotin, B2, or B3 help? My initial guess was a definite yes, but after a few years of trial and error, now my opinion has changed to a big no, especially at very high doses. If the person's system is not working properly to get rid of oxidative species that form during energy metabolism process, the extra vitamins and cofactors dumped into the body would only lead to more stress on the body.

By the way, acetyl CoA cannot be converted back to pyruvate unless in ketogenic process, which happens when a person is starved of glucose (carbs) for 10 days or more.

Also the description on the website does not necessarily match with what is depicted on the diagram, which makes me wonder if the author forgot to update the paragraphs when he updated the diagram. I am going to summarize a few points that author is trying to make later when I have time. I took a quick glance at it, and some of the information that is posted on the original source seems to be contradicting.

 

[Gondwanaland]

For instance, if one has a problem with fatty acid metabolism, would taking biotin, B2, or B3 help?

I noticed that some digestive enzymes might be needed

 

[Kathevans]

I'm looking for my thinking cap!

 

[Sidereal]

It looks like this diagram has been updated with a few changes from the old one. This is a very helpful diagram indeed, but I still am not sure about how these vitamins/cofactors help with carb/fat/protein metabolism. For instance, if one has a problem with fatty acid metabolism, would taking biotin, B2, or B3 help? My initial guess was a definite yes, but after a few years of trial and error, now my opinion has changed to a big no, especially at very high doses. If the person's system is not working properly to get rid of oxidative species that form during energy metabolism process, the extra vitamins and cofactors dumped into the body would only lead to more stress on the body.

I couldn't agree more. I am curious - do posters on this subforum ever ask themselves why people with ME/CFS have all these nutritional deficiencies? Energy production inhibition in this disease looks pretty regulated/purposeful to me. And the sicker one gets, the more obvious the damage becomes from even small doses of various B vitamins.

 

[sunking101]

I couldn't agree more. I am curious - do posters on this subforum ever ask themselves why people with ME/CFS have all these nutritional deficiencies? Energy production inhibition in this disease looks pretty regulated/purposeful to me. And the sicker one gets, the more obvious the damage becomes from even small doses of various B vitamins.

What are you getting at exactly? It would be interesting to hear your expanded views.
Also, are you saying that B Vitamins actually cause damage in sicker individuals?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Energy production inhibition in this disease looks pretty regulated/purposeful to me.

yes
OTOH I clearly have gut absorption problems and impairment in vitamin production by the microbiota induced by meds, so I am hopeful that I am finally on the right track now pursuing vitamin K

 

[Critterina]

This is a very helpful diagram indeed, but I still am not sure about how these vitamins/cofactors help with carb/fat/protein metabolism.

That's because this chart is only the Kreb's (carb) cycle. It doesn't address fat and protein metabolism, even as much as the other chart we were look at did, and that was only a head nod.

 

[Sidereal]

What are you getting at exactly? It would be interesting to hear your expanded views.
Also, are you saying that B Vitamins actually cause damage in sicker individuals?

Yes, in sicker individuals supplements and meds that force energy production typically cause crashing.

 

[pemone]

Source: http://www.health-science-spirit.com/HF5-2.html

View attachment 9243

Do you have a more detailed breakdown of the Krebs/Citric Acid Cycle that would show all of the metabolites like citric acid, as well as the detailed vitamins, minerals, and other metabolites (e.g., NAD+) required at each conversion step? I like the way the diagram you posted lays out precursors for all of the important steps leading into the Krebs.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Do you have a more detailed breakdown of the Krebs/Citric Acid Cycle that would show all of the metabolites like citric acid, as well as the detailed vitamins, minerals, and other metabolites (e.g., NAD+) required at each conversion step? I like the way the diagram you posted lays out precursors for all of the important steps leading into the Krebs.

I never found one like you described. I think we would have to draw one ourselves. I have re-labeled this one to make it more intuitive:

P.S. One big flaw of this diagram is that it doesn't show choline, or the mitochondrial steps

 

[Gondwanaland]

For instance, if one has a problem with fatty acid metabolism, would taking biotin, B2, or B3 help?

B5 is key for fat digestion. B5 can be wasted in urine if there is ketonuria, as can B1 as well.