Methylation protocol swollen ankles/lower legs

[sunking101]

Hi, I'm looking for some advice please.
A couple of months ago I started taking a co-enzyme B Complex containing methylfolate and MB12 and now I have problems with swollen/bruised lower legs just above my ankles and also a very bloated stomach.
I'm worried that these could be heart-related symptoms?? I feel much better since starting the protocol (I take vitamins and minerals as well etc) but these symptoms are alarming me and I have sores on the inside of my lower legs where this swelling is. I'm not sure if it's water retention or blood pooling but I wake up in the morning and all is well - no swelling - but as the day goes on it reappears.

What made me start the protocol was actually my gums. I've had ME for decades but a bout of stress in January caused me to have permanently sore gums and they got so bad that even brushing gently with a soft toothbrush was painful. The final straw was when they started to aggressively recede overnight and the emergency dentist could find nothing obviously causing it. I started to take Vitamin C and B Complex and slowly but surely, after around five weeks, my gums got a lot better. The recession didn't improve of course but they were 95% less sore. My post-exertional malaise and mood also improved.

Sadly though I can't figure out what to do about the swelling and so I stopped taking the B Complex two days ago. I'm very concerned that it's now open season with my gums again and I remain perturbed by my swollen legs and accompanying sores. They have improved markedly since I stopped taking the B Compex (Thorne Basic B) but I'm still bloated and worried about my legs. Has anyone ever experienced this, or does anyone have any advice?

Thanks!

 

[Critterina]

My two cents: Go see a doctor. This doesn't sound like something to fool around with.

 

[sunking101]

My two cents: Go see a doctor. This doesn't sound like something to fool around with.

I saw the doc but it was late morning and my legs weren't unduly swollen at that time. He knew nothing about methylation and just told me to stop taking the tablets if I was fine before I started. That was that!

 

[Critterina]

I saw the doc but it was late morning and my legs weren't unduly swollen at that time. He knew nothing about methylation and just told me to stop taking the tablets if I was fine before I started. That was that!

That sounds like a good place to start. Then if it improves, you can add in Vitamin C again, and see if that makes it come back. And you can buy the B vitamins as singles, not a complex, and add them in one at a time, to see if you can see which one is the problem...or if it's something else in the complex. I would recommend tablets over capsules if you can find them, just because it could be the capsule you're reacting to. And if it doesn't improve, walk back into his office and ask him to take a look.

Meanwhile, can you take Co-Q10? It made a huge difference in my gums about 20-25 years ago. Stopped the bleeding, etc. (I can't take it now, though, because it makes my heart race. Using my cell phone pulse meter, I took my pulse, 70, took the sample of a Co-Q10 liquid from the lady at Costco, and took it again. Instantaneously it went to 80, then I walked to the checkout line and a few minutes later it was 88. Although some would say 88 is not technically 'racing' it's a 25% increase in bpm. I'm taking that as a sign it's not good for me.)

I'm really surprised at your doctor, though. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean there is cause and effect, and he should be the first to know that. If it is heart-related, and if it is unrelated to methylation supplements, that wouldn't be good. Did you ask him directly if it could be heart-related? Did he even listen to your heart? If you think it deserves an urgent care or emergency room visit, go for it. Only you know if you're feeling fragile.

Best of luck to you!

 

[sunking101]

That sounds like a good place to start. Then if it improves, you can add in Vitamin C again, and see if that makes it come back. And you can buy the B vitamins as singles, not a complex, and add them in one at a time, to see if you can see which one is the problem...or if it's something else in the complex. I would recommend tablets over capsules if you can find them, just because it could be the capsule you're reacting to. And if it doesn't improve, walk back into his office and ask him to take a look.

Meanwhile, can you take Co-Q10? It made a huge difference in my gums about 20-25 years ago. Stopped the bleeding, etc. (I can't take it now, though, because it makes my heart race. Using my cell phone pulse meter, I took my pulse, 70, took the sample of a Co-Q10 liquid from the lady at Costco, and took it again. Instantaneously it went to 80, then I walked to the checkout line and a few minutes later it was 88. Although some would say 88 is not technically 'racing' it's a 25% increase in bpm. I'm taking that as a sign it's not good for me.)

I'm really surprised at your doctor, though. Just because two things happen at the same time doesn't mean there is cause and effect, and he should be the first to know that. If it is heart-related, and if it is unrelated to methylation supplements, that wouldn't be good. Did you ask him directly if it could be heart-related? Did he even listen to your heart? If you think it deserves an urgent care or emergency room visit, go for it. Only you know if you're feeling fragile.

Best of luck to you!

Yes, I did ask if it was heart-related but because my legs weren't swollen at all I can understand why he wasn't too concerned. They get worse mid-evening as I tended to take my B Complex late afternoon. Even then they aren't horrifically swollen, just noticeably so and the sores are in the exact-same place on both lower legs, on the inner side in the place where the swelling comes. He said it was just exzcema and dismissed it. I don't buy that, they're related so far as I'm concerned. Cause and effect? I think so in this case as they have improved somewhat since stopping the B Complex. It's annoying as heck though because I want to take it!

As for Co-Q10 I'm sorry to say that I can't take that either. I researched the benefits and have tried taking it on two occasions now but had to stop. On the first day it makes me feel horny & spaced out immediately after taking it, on the second day I get palpitations and on the third day intense fatigue. I give up then!

 

[Critterina]

@sunking101 ,

Yes, it seems like the Co-Q10 is not good for you, either (except maybe that first day ). Have you looked up picture of eczema on the internet to compare? For me, eczema is a reaction to dietary histamines. Actually, so is swelling, just different body parts.

That's good that you're seeing improvement...now to pin down the cause, if you want to, you'll need to be a scientist and try some controlled experiments. I suggest you start writing down everything you do and notice. I was able to pinpoint the fact that depression followed within an hour of starting a new prescription because I kept writing everything down...even though I thought it started before I took it. Memory is a faulty things sometimes.

Questions:

1. Have you tried taking the B Complex in the morning? If so, does the reaction follow the same number of hours later?

2. Have you tried a different brand? I was using something, then I switched to B Healthy by Emerald Labs, and there was a noticeable improvement. Now I use B Healthy by Answers from Nature - less expensive because you take one instead of two. I don't see any difference between them.

3. How many days of being off the B Complex before you noticed improvement?

4. What brand are you taking?

 

[sunking101]

Hi again, sorry for the delay in replying. I've not been feeling so good and your post required a fairly lengthy response which I didn't feel up to yesterday.

Oh yes, the first day on Co-Q10 is rather nice for the approx 30 mins after taking it

It looks like vascular edema to me? The two areas are in exactly the same place on both inner lower legs, and exactly where the swelling occurs.

1) I haven't tried taking the B Complex in the morning actually. Reason being that I'm very 'fragile' for the first few hours when I awake and historically haven't tolerated meds very well until mid-afternoon. On a morning I just take a multivit and a selenium tablet after breakfast. Typically I will take my B Complex late-afternoon.

2) Oh blimey, I've tried loads! I have to take the coenzymated 'active' forms as the bog-standard B's just make me intensely fatigued. Ideally I would like to find a non-synthetic B Complex which doesn't contain brewer's yeast, or alternatively a much lower dose synthetic Complex but both seem impossible to find.

3) I see mild improvement within 48hrs.

4) Thorne Basic B. It has all the correct forms and is a good B Complex on paper. I just wish that it (and all the others) weren't such silly-high dosages.

 

[Critterina]

I guess I've run out of ideas for now, except for one: since Thorne and the two I suggested are capsules, you can dump them out and take a fraction. If you want to be exacting, there are plenty of milligram scales for sale online. You could weigh the contents of one capsule and figure out what 5% (or whatever % you choose) and go from there.

I'd be interested in your take on how the two brands I suggested appear on paper. Emerald is whole-food based and I didn't see any brewer's yeast. Answers is free of yeast but doesn't list ingredients.

 

[sunking101]

I guess I've run out of ideas for now, except for one: since Thorne and the two I suggested are capsules, you can dump them out and take a fraction. If you want to be exacting, there are plenty of milligram scales for sale online. You could weigh the contents of one capsule and figure out what 5% (or whatever % you choose) and go from there.

I'd be interested in your take on how the two brands I suggested appear on paper. Emerald is whole-food based and I didn't see any brewer's yeast. Answers is free of yeast but doesn't list ingredients.

I was already splitting the capsules into halves and had bought some empty veggie caps to use. What worries me is that the halves won't contain the same contents will they? Won't folate and B2 for instance be at one end, with B12 and B6 at the other?

I will check out the Emerald.

 

[sunking101]

Just checked it out and it appears to be a standard coenzyme B formula with added veggie powder. Still synthetic.

 

[Critterina]

Just checked it out and it appears to be a standard coenzyme B formula with added veggie powder. Still synthetic.

How did you figure that out? Did you check out the Answers from Nature brand also?

 

[sunking101]

How did you figure that out? Did you check out the Answers from Nature brand also?

I looked at the ingredients online (*see attached file).

The other product by Answers From Nature is again a synthetic B Complex with large doses, plus folic acid which I need to avoid. I have to take methylfolate.
The Thorne one I use(d) is the best I could find, but it's still synthetic and I would love to take a food-based product. It's such a shame that nobody seems to make such a thing!

 

[Critterina]

We are looking at the same label, and reaching different conclusions. For any acid, there is a salt associated with it, and the salt has the same sort of name, but ending with "ate", as you learned in organic chemistry. Thus for Answers from Nature's B-Healthy! B complex:

The folate here is methylfolate, but the other ion in the salt is identified as glucosamine, as opposed to not identified, so it's expressed as the acid salt. Same for the Emerald Labs. It says "Coenzyme Folic Acid (L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate)". These are not the folic acids you need to avoid. They are the methylfolates you're looking for.

What I'm wondering is why you think the other ingredients are synthesized, not grown. I work in biotechnology, albeit not in vitamin production, but I can't tell from the label that the B-2 above is from a chemical synthesis or from a biotechnology process, or from a whole food. I'm pretty good at reading labels, and I don't see the origin.

 

[sunking101]

We are looking at the same label, and reaching different conclusions. For any acid, there is a salt associated with it, and the salt has the same sort of name, but ending with "ate", as you learned in organic chemistry. Thus for Answers from Nature's B-Healthy! B complex:

The folate here is methylfolate, but the other ion in the salt is identified as glucosamine, as opposed to not identified, so it's expressed as the acid salt. Same for the Emerald Labs. It says "Coenzyme Folic Acid (L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate)". These are not the folic acids you need to avoid. They are the methylfolates you're looking for.

What I'm wondering is why you think the other ingredients are synthesized, not grown. I work in biotechnology, albeit not in vitamin production, but I can't tell from the label that the B-2 above is from a chemical synthesis or from a biotechnology process, or from a whole food. I'm pretty good at reading labels, and I don't see the origin.

That's a different label to to the one I attached? The folate on the label I attached is listed as folic acid. That was from the company's website regarding the Emerald, so if you have some with a different formula then I wasn't referring to those.

As for whether they're synthetic or not, unless they state that the vitamins are from whole food (or brewer's yeast) then they are certain to be synthetic. Just because they then add some powdered veg and fruit etc to either aid absorption (not strictly necessary with B Vits) or to make people think it's the source of the vitamins themselves, it doesn't change the fact that the vitamins are synthetic.

 

[sunking101]

Sorry, just checked again and I appear to have selected the wrong product last night somehow. The two you suggested (and indeed the label I uploaded) *do* contain methylfolate. I know to avoid folic acid and must have downloaded the correct label but actually read the 'Brain Complex' ingredients which is listed directly below on the website. That product contains folic acid. I was tired lol.

However, the B Complex itself is still synthetic in both. They have just added a 'whole food blend' to the product, much like some of the more expensive multivitamins do.

 

[Critterina]

Ok, I guess I'm a bit of a literalist. Synthetic to me means synthesized by a series of chemical reactions. Most small molecule drugs are synthesized. These vitamins are not all that large, so maybe you're right. I just can't tell from the label.