The OTHER supplements besides fredd/rvk's protocol?

[gefinauser]

Hiya folks,

Second post! This is some embarrassing newbie questions that I've tried to find answers to but all the information are so scattered... I know what brands richvank (god bless his soul) and fredd uses and I don't usually complain about scattered posts, that's just expected.

But... what about everything else other than B12 and folate? What brands?? What about B-vit complexses, what NAC, TMG, DMG, glutathione, R-2-P, P5P... lecithin... eeeh-5-doh... (i love these emoticons, lol).

... so to actual questions. I want to clarify though that I've studied heartfixer and SNP's inside out. So feel free to use the methylation jargon liberally and no need to explain things as if I was a person who never read about this stuff. I've won my fight over brainfog and fatigue for most part so no worries there lol.

1. If I've understood right, lot of people seem to still use NAC and Glutanthione despite that they scavenge MB12/Metafolin? Is this because people tried them and felt better on them, or are there methylation SNP related reasons to do them?

2. What about THF, 5-M-THF, SAMe, SAH? What are the reasons to supplement those? Anecdotal/symptoms possibly improve or is it smart to take those on some SNP's?

3. What brand of B-vit complex you people in general have found to be best? Of course there are arguments for/against stuff like R-2-P but I would assume the general consensus is that active forms in B's are the best?

4. Is letichin etc a good substitute for TMG (if excess methyl issues) or have people found problems with them? What brand does people use for that?

5. How are people tolerating folinic acid?? I see fredd vehemently disliking them and heartfixer giving them a smaller role but some people here seem to do great on them. ! Blasmephy! !?! What sorcery is this?? lol (did i say that i love these emoticons?).
Anyways, does that mean that I should as well order folinic acid, despite being a OK on SHMT?

6. Is Lithium still a work-in-progress stuff much like R2P, In terms of if it's essential? It seems Yasko and some people swear by it's detox/making b12 work - effect but is it certainly detox or is it the deficincies in folate etc?

7. I swear, I tried my best to seek answers for these but there is no general compilation of working brands for everything else than what is in fredd's and RVK's. I wonder why? Does that mean there are no conclusive definitive testing done on other brands, or is there just no interest to make a masterlist on those? And I apologize if my tone is accidentally accusative as I'm merely curious.

I want to clarify though, I really appreciate any help and thanks in advance for patience and any help. Sorry for the jokes and emoticons...but i regret nothing LOL.

Really though, the time and effort you do on your posts... I spent good chunk of yesterday just scrolling through the posts in astonishment... so many bright minds under the same roof, so much research! Wow!

 

[PeterPositive]

Hi and welcome,
just a small advice, the so called heartfixer website may contain inaccurate / non evidence-based information. Take it with a grain of salt or check the available research directly.

1. If I've understood right, lot of people seem to still use NAC and Glutanthione despite that they scavenge MB12/Metafolin? Is this because people tried them and felt better on them, or are there methylation SNP related reasons to do them?

NAC and Glutathione don't scavenge B12/folate.
Freddd has his own theory based on his personal findings, but it's not a generalization. I do perfectly fine on oral GSH and it doesn't interfere the least. Nor there's strong evidence that it does.

2. What about THF, 5-M-THF, SAMe, SAH? What are the reasons to supplement those? Anecdotal/symptoms possibly improve or is it smart to take those on some SNP's?

THF and 5-MTHF are two forms of folate. The latter is what we refer to as methyfolate (e.g. Metafolin)
SAMe is one of the end product of methylation, it can also be taken orally, if necessary.
SAH is mostly a marker of insufficient methylation, not something you would supplement with.

4. Is letichin etc a good substitute for TMG (if excess methyl issues) or have people found problems with them? What brand does people use for that?

Choline (from lecithin) can be metabolized to betaine, but I think taking TMG directly is much better. Lecithin can be a good source of phospholipids, so it may help too but for different reasons.

5. How are people tolerating folinic acid?? I see fredd vehemently disliking them and heartfixer giving them a smaller role but some people here seem to do great on them. ! Blasmephy! !?! What sorcery is this?? lol (did i say that i love these emoticons?).

Folinic acid will work just fine unless you have highly reduce function of the mthfr enzyme.

6. Is Lithium still a work-in-progress stuff much like R2P, In terms of if it's essential? It seems Yasko and some people swear by it's detox/making b12 work - effect but is it certainly detox or is it the deficincies in folate etc?

I don't know what is R2P...
Lithium... tried it, didn't do anything for me.

Word of advice, Yasko is another expert that puts a lot of information in circulation that is not much backed by evidence. Not saying all she says is unreliable but again, grain of salts are recommended

Since you are new with this it is recommended to start out with the basics, which is essentially the B vitamins.
Something like this:
http://www.seekinghealth.com/b-complex-supplement.html

has all the basic ingredients. One could start low such as 1/4 or 1/2 of the dose and with time increase if necessary. B12 is not very high in this one so eventually you could add a sublingual lozenge.

Cheers

 

[gefinauser]

@PeterPositive, Hi Peter! Thanks a lot. I appriciate your time on this.

Hi and welcome,
just a small advice, the so called heartfixer website may contain inaccurate / non evidence-based information. Take it with a grain of salt or check the available research directly.

Word of advice, Yasko is another expert that puts a lot of information in circulation that is not much backed by evidence. Not saying anything she says is unreliable but again, grain of salts are recommended

Oh lordy lord!!!! I fell out of chair with that. Well... you guys know your stuff the best!

I better actually post my SNP’s in a seperate topic and let you guys chime in then. Back to school.

So if I understand right... basically you guys have to discover on your own that what stuff works for you, right? So that’s why you use so many different supplements and try out what works the best?

NAC and Glutathione don't scavenge B12/folate.
Freddd has his own theory based on his personal findings, but it's not a generalization. I do perfectly fine on oral GSH and it doesn't interfere the least. Nor there's strong evidence that it does.

THF and 5-MTHF are two forms of folate. The latter is what we refer to as methyfolate (e.g. Metafolin)
SAMe is one of the end product of methylation, it can also be taken orally, if necessary.
SAH is mostly a marker of insufficient methylation, not something you would supplement with.

Folinic acid will work just fine unless you have highly reduce function of the mthfr enzyme.

Choline (from lecithin) can be metabolized to betaine, but I think taking TMG directly is much better. Lecithin can be a good source of phospholipids, so it may help too but for different reasons.

I don't know what is R2P...
Lithium... tried it, didn't do anything for me.

Ahh, so THF is folate and 5-MTHF methylfolate then, and then there’s vegetable source folinic acid. You use SAMe in case you have problems making it on your own.

I “heard” (aka i haven’t studied the fact myself) that lecithin with methione would readily turn into TMG in the body. Perhaps it’s not true. I do know that phospati-whatevers are BHMT products meant to drive the backdoor from CBS (which is in my interest, yes). I would love to take TMG but I need to control my methyl excess with idk niacin or hydroxycobalamin? Was there other methyl scavengers out there?

My bad, I meant Riboflavin 5’-Phospate. I appriciate the anecdotes, thanks a lot.

Since you are new with this it is recommended to start out with the basics, which is essentially the B vitamins.
Something like this:http://www.seekinghealth.com/b-complex-supplement.html

has all the basic ingredients. One could start low such as 1/4 or 1/2 of the dose and with time increase if necessary. B12 is not very high in this one so eventually one could add a sublingual lozenge.

Ah, so you use this B-complex yourself? I can start with that, sure.

I’m using Thorne Basic B Complex myself right now, I have no idea is it any good. I got scared to take anything else than what PRising people suggest, in case that the fillers etc make in ineffective. I guess I have to own up and experiment.

http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Basic-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/18791#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=thorne basic b complex&rc=18&sr=null&ic=1

 

[PeterPositive]

@PeterPositive
So if I understand right... basically you guys have to discover on your own that what stuff works for you, right? So that’s why you use so many different supplements and try out what works the best?

Unfortunately yes.
Other people experiences can help too, but often times they can't be generalized.

Ahh, so THF is folate and 5-MTHF methylfolate then, and then there’s vegetable source folinic acid. You use SAMe in case you have problems making it on your own.

Essentially yes. If you can make your own much better. Among other things SAMe is very expensive and unstable at moderate temperatures.

“heard” (aka i haven’t studied the fact myself) that lecithin with methione would readily turn into TMG in the body. Perhaps it’s not true. I do know that phospati-whatevers are BHMT products meant to drive the backdoor from CBS (which is in my interest, yes). I would love to take TMG but I need to control my methyl excess with idk niacin or hydroxycobalamin? Was there other methyl scavengers out there?

Niacin / niacinamide uses up methyl groups. So it's kind of a methyl sponge, if you will
Hydroxy-B12... not that I've heard or know of.

My bad, I meant Riboflavin 5’-Phospate. I appriciate the anecdotes, thanks a lot.

Ah ok.
Sure B2 is necessary in the right amount for folate metabolism and many other functions.

I’m using Thorne Basic B Complex myself right now, I have no idea is it any good. I got scared to take anything else than what PRising people suggest, in case that the fillers etc make in ineffective. I guess I have to own up and experiment.

Seems like a good product, with reasonable amounts of all Bs.
To be a nitpicker ... it seems quite high in B1, for the rest it looks good. If you're going to try it, don't start with a full dose. 1/4th to 1/5th of the capsule would suffice. It's best to have no effect, than side effects
If all goes well you'll be able to increase the dose over the course of several weeks. No rush!

cheers

 

[gefinauser]

Aye! Thanks for kindness, @PeterPositive . Thanks for info... I'll start digging & getting my hands dirty (hopefully that doesn't crash me LOL). Seriously, all the best wishes for you... all the stuff you guys and gals have to deal with it...!
I'll post if I find something useful for me, though it's going to take awhile what with the lack of funds. I get a feeling BH4 will be a gamechanger, if it ever becomes much more cheaper than it is.

 

[ahmo]

I've won my fight over brainfog and fatigue for most part so no worries there lol.

Congratulations and welcome to pr. I, too,love emotis.

B-vit complexses....
stuff like R-2-P but I would assume the general consensus is that active forms in B's are the best?

There are 2 docs linked in my signature. Both have info re B complex. Also, aturtles has a recent blog post with some Fred updates. I believe Fred was using Jarrow B right, you'll have to check the docs for this. I've settled on this Swanson product. Fred found, and my experience has been the same, that only small levels of B complex are needed, and higher doses can increase potassium needs. I split the capsules, take 1/2 early AM, 1/2 middday. For many of us, activated Bs are definitely better, necessary.

TMG, DMG

I don't know how to answer about this. I used TMG for about a year. Then some shifts in my body meant that I no longer needed it. TMG is the cheaper solution than DMG, if you need one of these. I use self-testing for my supps and dosages. This has held me on course through the twists and turns of working with methylation. I'll post a very simple youtube link. It's really about practicing a method and using it over time to build up your confidence in it.

How are people tolerating folinic acid??

When I tried Rich VanK's SMP, I got no results...folinic. I eventually discovered that eating green veggies, which contribute folinic as vegetable folate, blocks methylfolate for me. When I quit green veg, my folate need was halved. And, a tip, when I switched to using Mfolate sublinghually, instead of swallowing, my need for folate again decreased by 2/3. A huge financial saving, as well as sparing my adrenals.

Is Lithium still a work-in-progress stuff much like R2P, In terms of if it's essential? It seems Yasko and some people swear by it's detox/making b12 work - effect but is it certainly detox or is it the deficincies in folate etc?

I started Lithium based on yasko's info. I found it immediately shifted my long-term tendency to burst into tears at any sad story. Later I read that it's involved w/ B12 absorption or utilization. I don't think I've seen it linked to detox. I went from using 5mg/day, per Yasko, to 10mg/day, and now no longer self-test for needing it daily.

Re R2P, I had bad results when trying to add too much. but am just 2 weeks into having excellent results using it in the form of FMN. This seems to be especially helpful for MAO snps. It's allowed me to reduce a number of supps, including LCF. Here's one of the posts that provoked me to try it. And another.

Does that mean there are no conclusive definitive testing done on other brands

As far as I know, all the Mfolate brands containing 5-MTHF are the same. L Carnitine Fumarate: Dr's Best seems to be the best buy, Fred and I are using it. The AdB12 that was recommended is no longer available (Anabol Naturals). I've switched to Source Naturals AdB12 sublinguals, seems the same.

Re MB12: Enzymatic Therapies 1mg sublingual has been Fred's most preferred. I had equally good results w/ Country Life 5mg, though others found it dissolved too fast. My mouth may be drier than others. However, I'm now happily using transdermal B12. There's a thread about this, as well as another thread re inhaling B12. I was interested in both, but found that transdermal was much easier to use, needed no special equipment, and since I've begun DIY w/ sublingual drops and body creme, much cheaper.


Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

Good written description of simple self-testing: http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/herbalists/muscle_testing.htm

 

[gefinauser]

@Mimi, hey man, what a treasure trove of anecdotes, loving it! Thanks for all that effort! I'll be studying your links inside out... lots of things to learn from this forum.

I'm following your story with great interest... our gut flora and BH4 - routes overlap, though I'm going to be focusing of methylation supplements + BH4 for this year, gut issues has to wait until next year. I've got a pretty great protocol for that but the problem is that I need my acquittance to test it out properly... so that I know what speed bumps or mistakes could be ahead.

I also do muscle testing extensively (I do the wrist rotating :thumbdown:myself & I never seem to be in wrong polarity, hopefully i'm not hypochondriac with that one lol) but I wasn't sure how good or correct it is for testing supplements.
Do you feel like you actually get some good results with muscle testing doses VS trying to experiment with proper doses yourself VS following set rules with dosing?

EDIT oops sorry mimi, i meant ahmo in there, you got similar 4 letter names. my bad!

 

[ahmo]

Do you feel like you actually get some good results with muscle testing doses VS trying to experiment with proper doses yourself VS following set rules with dosing?

unsure if this was to be addressed to me, I don't see any posts here by mimi. In any case, I follow guidelines and suggestions re directions to pursue, but in actually dosing, I ask my body. I've been on the methylation path for 2.5 years, and this has allowed me to move step by step. Lab tests have all been pretty worthless, so I don't bother with them. And I haven't had professional help. So this is how I've proceeded. I learned the technique I use just as I was dissolving into ME, and have been using it since then, so have built up a good rapport.

Ben Lynch on types of methylfolate:
http://mthfr.net/l-methylfolate-methylfolate-5-mthf/2012/04/05/ What’s the Difference? Types

 

[gefinauser]

unsure if this was to be addressed to me, I don't see any posts here by mimi. In any case, I follow guidelines and suggestions re directions to pursue, but in actually dosing, I ask my body. I've been on the methylation path for 2.5 years, and this has allowed me to move step by step. Lab tests have all been pretty worthless, so I don't bother with them. And I haven't had professional help. So this is how I've proceeded. I learned the technique I use just as I was dissolving into ME, and have been using it since then, so have built up a good rapport.

Ben Lynch on types of methylfolate:
http://mthfr.net/l-methylfolate-methylfolate-5-mthf/2012/04/05/ What’s the Difference? Types

Ya, I feel like after the initial diagnosis with proper labs, the stuff is so complex in interactions that it's better to draft your own methylation supplement cocktails yourself through experimentation.

Luckily I saw that Ben Lynches post ages ago and saved it, lol. christ, imagine ordering all those 5mthf suppelements and never feeling right with seemingly right ingredients...

@ahmo, what kind of sublingual 5-mthf do you use, what brand? I'll order and experiment with it in the future, once my current reserves of metafolin runs out. I'm also going to try the TMF, thanks a ton for recommendation!

 

[ahmo]

Ya, I feel like after the initial diagnosis with proper labs, the stuff is so complex in interactions that it's better to draft your own methylation supplement cocktails yourself through experimentation

imagine ordering all those 5mthf suppelements and never feeling right with seemingly right ingredients...

I've used several brands of Mfolate sublingually. Solgar tablrets, which are easy to break into smaller doses, dissolve fine , also I empty Thorne 5mg capsules into gum, using 1/3 for 3 doses/day. I'm just now using up some Life Extension 1mg capsules I had on hand.