Severe Reaction To Niacin

[Changexpert]

I took 100 mg of niacin after diner to verify that I have high histamine. Since high histamine generally means undermethylation, I wanted to prepare myself before getting the genetic profile from 23andme.

Within 5 minutes of consumption, my heart felt like it was about to explode and my face got extremely hot. I could not breathe easily either. Fortunately, initial symptoms went away within 20 seconds. It's been 30 minutes and my entire body is red like Hell Boy. Wow... I thought I was going to ER at first.

Has anybody experienced something similar? Lesson learned is, if you turn red easily from alcohol, do not attempt to try niacin. I knew that 100 mg was not a low dose, but I think 50 mg would have had similar effects on my body.

 

[Sushi]

Has anybody experienced something similar?

Yep, scary until I realized the cause. They say you can safely move up from a very small dose to a higher dose, but I haven't tried it.

 

[Sherlock]

my heart felt like it was about to explode

Because histamine from mast cells lowered your blood pressure and your heart compensated by pumping harder and faster.

my face got extremely hot

Because histamine and prostaglandins from mast cells create the flush.

I could not breathe easily either

Because histamine causes bronchoconstriction. You might get a similar reaction from being in cold water.

Has anybody experienced something similar?

Yes, I certainly have. I don't mind it at all. Btw, methylated B12 and folate did nothing for me. But 500mg of quercetin abolishes the flush by 90%.

If you had tried more niacin an hour or so later, you wouldn't have flush nearly so much because the signalling chemicals need time to be replenished first.

Can you drag a fingernail across your sternum and make a line?

mastcellmaster.com is where Theohardes is at.

Have you seen the Mast Cell forum here?

 

[adreno]

The niacin flush is not mediated through histamine release, but prostaglandins.

Just about everyone will flush from 100mg niacin. It cannot be used to diagnose your histamine or methylation status.

 

[PeterPositive]

The niacin flush is not mediated through histamine release, but prostaglandins.

... and serotonin from platelets.
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665.full

 

[Changexpert]

The niacin flush is not mediated through histamine release, but prostaglandins.

Just about everyone will flush from 100mg niacin. It cannot be used to diagnose your histamine or methylation status.

Yes, I was aware of that the flush was caused by PGD2. One question I have is does continued use of niacin deplete PGD2 level? I am losing a lot of hair at the moment, and found that elevated PGD2 is one of the contributing factors of hair loss. If niacin causes flushes via PGD2 mechanism, shouldn't it deplete PGD2 level eventually?

 

[adreno]

Yes, I was aware of that the flush was caused by PGD2. One question I have is does continued use of niacin deplete PGD2 level? I am losing a lot of hair at the moment, and found that elevated PGD2 is one of the contributing factors of hair loss. If niacin causes flushes via PGD2 mechanism, shouldn't it deplete PGD2 level eventually?

I don't think it can be truly depleted,but if you take niacin several times daily, the flush will likely be milder.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I have been wondering for a long time about increased inflammation from serotonin (a la Ray Peat). I guess ammonia might be involved [in serotonin breakdown?]

 

[Sherlock]

The niacin flush is not mediated through histamine release, but prostaglandins.

Niacin is thought to induce flush by stimulating the release of prostaglandin D2 (PGD2) from the skin (Morrow et al., 1989, 1992). The actual cell type responsible for PGD2 release in response to niacin is unknown, but dermal macrophages (Urade et al., 1989) and Langerhans cells (Benyó et al., 2006) have been implicated. However, coadministration of acetylsalicylic acid (ASA) to reduce PGD2 levels has not been particularly effective (only 30% inhibition) in blocking niacin flush (Dunn et al., 1995; Jungnickel et al., 1997), implying that molecules other than PGD2 may be involved. These may include histamine and serotonin, which could be released from mast cells (Kushnir-Sukhov et al., 2007).

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665.full

Histamine is clearly involved. The typical niacin flush is identical with the flush produced by an injection of histamine. It is dampened down if not prevented entirely by anti-histamines and by tranquilizers.

http://www.doctoryourself.com/hoffer_cardio.html
Niacin, Coronary Disease and Longevity
by Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. (the famous orthomolecular guy)

Just about everyone will flush from 100mg niacin. It cannot be used to diagnose your histamine or methylation status.

Most only flush only head and neck. Someone who flushes terribly has more going on than usual.

 

[adreno]

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/327/3/665.full

I guess you didn't read the paper you quoted:

Methylnicotinate had a weak effect on inducing histamine release from human mast cells, whereas niacin did not increase rat plasma histamine levels. Moreover, the H1-receptor antagonists brompheniramine, chlorpheniramine, diphenylhydramine, and ketotifen did not block niacin-induced skin temperature increases. Combined, these results suggest that histamine is not involved in niacin-induced flush.

And from another paper:

Flushing symptoms occur following vasodilatation of small capillaries under the skin, a response that can be mediated via histamine/bradykinin or prostaglandins. Flushing is not unique to niacin; it has also been reported frequently by patients taking phosphodiesterase inhibitors, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), selective oestrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), adenosine and tretinoin. Topical and oral administration of niacin has not been associated with increases in blood levels of either histamine or bradykinin, suggesting that niacin-induced flushing is not mediated by mast cells (26,27). The release of histamine or bradykinin causes a substantial rise in nitric oxide, which leads to increased intracellular release of cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) and vasodilatation. Elimination of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS), an enzyme critical for NO production, did not stop niacin-induced flushing in mice (12), providing further support that the histamine/bradykinin pathway is not involved in niacin-induced flushing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779993/

 

[Sherlock]

I guess you didn't read the paper you quoted:

Combined, these results suggest that histamine is not involved in niacin-induced flush.

I see the word suggest, which is not enough to make the blanket claim that histamine is not involved.

The paper says that this or that study implies or suggests one way or the other, and even begins with "Niacin is thought to..." . No blanket claim is made.

I see from the 2nd paper: "suggesting that niacin-induced flushing is not mediated by mast cells". Yet not only does my often repeated personal experience but also Theoharides' body of work say that mast cell stabilizers abolish or greatly inhibit the niacin flush. Are you claiming that V S Kamanna, S H Ganji, and M L Kashyap using the word "suggesting' overrides that? Or that quercetin et al have other effects beyond those on MCs? I suppose that's possible. Btw, it ends with "providing further support", not "proof".

Hoffer spent his life on these things, whether he is right or wrong he will have studied all the evidence available at his time - and he said it was involved.

All in all, I'd say that there is not sufficient reason to make the blanket claim that histamine is not involved. I suppose you could also say that there is not sufficient reason to make the blanket claim that histamine is definitely involved. That would be fair - though I'd be hesitant to say that histamine is not involved in anything regarding vasodilation without a lot of proof.

 

[Sherlock]

Quercetin attenuates inflammation in human macrophages and adipocytes exposed to macrophage-conditioned media.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21224828

CONCLUSION:
Taken together, these data suggest that QUE is one of the bioactive components of GPE that prevents inflammation in MΦs and MΦ-mediated insulin resistance in adipocytes.

Quercetin is equally or more effective than resveratrol in attenuating tumor necrosis factor-α–mediated inflammation and insulin resistance in primary human adipocytes
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/6/1511.long

quercetin and trans-RSV, attenuates markers of inflammation in human adipocytes and macrophages

 

[Gondwanaland]

niacinamide should help if one is overmethylated or has taken too many methyl group supplements and needs to quench methylation -- but not if one has a methylation block or is "undermethylated", which is more often the case with ME/CFS.

At least that's what Rich VanK found in his study w/Dr. Neil Nathan.

Also, it would not be good for those with histamine issues:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23426511

I suppose it would be the same with niacin?

 

[dannybex]

I suppose it would be the same with niacin?

Not sure…but I think it is connected to mast cell issues.

 

[adreno]

I see the word suggest, which is not enough to make the blanket claim that histamine is not involved.

The paper says that this or that study implies or suggests one way or the other, and even begins with "Niacin is thought to..." . No blanket claim is made.

I shouldn't have to explain to you that no blanket claims are made in science. All you are going to get is "the data suggests", not "this proves". This is because tomorrow new data might come to light, which falsifies earlier hypotheses. Nothing can ever be proven beyond any doubt.

In case you are referring to my statement that histamine is not involved, I will restate my comment in scientific language for you:

The data does not suggest involvement of histamine in niacin-induced flushing.

I see from the 2nd paper: "suggesting that niacin-induced flushing is not mediated by mast cells". Yet not only does my often repeated personal experience but also Theoharides' body of work say that mast cell stabilizers abolish or greatly inhibit the niacin flush. Are you claiming that V S Kamanna, S H Ganji, and M L Kashyap using the word "suggesting' overrides that? Or that quercetin et al have other effects beyond those on MCs? I suppose that's possible. Btw, it ends with "providing further support", not "proof".

I don't know why they write that, mast cells do secrete PGD2 to my knowledge. Quercetin likely works by inhibiting PGD2 and serotonin release:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18831918

Hoffer spent his life on these things, whether he is right or wrong he will have studied all the evidence available at his time - and he said it was involved.

You are welcome to put your faith in Hoffer et al., I won't.

 

[Changexpert]

FWIW, I've been using niacin for four days now and my personal experiences agree with PGD2 approach, not histamine approach. You would probably be wondering how can you tell? The simple answer to that is hair loss.

Scientists have shown that PGD2 level in the scalp is elevated for balding men. PGD2 downregulates hair growth, which impedes nutrient flow to the scalp and hair shafts. There are two receptors that release PGD2 reaction, PD1 and PD2. PD2 receptor is the one responsible for downregulation of hair growth. Fortunately, when niacin causes flush via PGD2 reaction, only PD1 receptor is involved, the one not related to hair loss. As a result, the kind of stinging sensation in the scalp I get from niacin flush is totally different from itching sensation that histamine provides.

Whenever I consume high histamine food like fermented food, my scalp would itch so much in an effort to break down histamine. This never occurs with niacin flush. Also, this concept applies to the entire body, not just the scalp. My body has not broken out with rashes everywhere. In fact, I have not been scratching my legs during my sleep since I took niacin.

Soruces
http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/4/126/126ra34
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319975/

 

[Forbin]

My reaction to niacin has been totally unpredictable. I took it every day for a period of months and there was no way to tell when I would have no reaction and when I would have a massive reaction. It was like playing "niacin roulette."

 

[Marlène]

I felt like I woke up after having too much anesthetics when I took 100 mg of niacine the first time. Felt like dying.

 

[Gondwanaland]

How about inositol? It makes me feel great, but I just can't stand the itchyness so I can't take it

 

[Gondwanaland]

I shouldn't have to explain to you that no blanket claims are made in science. All you are going to get is "the data suggests", not "this proves". This is because tomorrow new data might come to light, which falsifies earlier hypotheses. Nothing can ever be proven beyond any doubt.

In case you are referring to my statement that histamine is not involved, I will restate my comment in scientific language for you:

The data does not suggest involvement of histamine in niacin-induced flushing.

I don't know why they write that, mast cells do secrete PGD2 to my knowledge. Quercetin likely works by inhibiting PGD2 and serotonin release:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18831918

You are welcome to put your faith in Hoffer et al., I won't.

I think you have been unnecessarily rude, arrogant and pedantic lately. I don't think you need to be all that to make a point.

Please remember that there are real people behind the postings, and they are ill, and some are very caring, like Sherlock is, and he hasn't posted at PR anymore after your rudeness, and I miss his contributions.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, there is histamine release from taking niacin.

B3 however, can raise blood histamine.