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Homeopathy "not good for anything" report says

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
@JPV, we should ban drugs if we know they do not work at all.

Well, homeopathic remedies would seem to, at least, be effective as placebos. Science is slowly accepting that placebos may actually have some therapeutic relevance. Meanwhile, many drugs on the market are now seen as no more effective than placebos which seems to imply that their effectiveness may be entirely due to the placebo effect. How something like this gets reconciled when it comes time to decide what does or doesn't get banned, is way beyond me.
How Placebos Change the Patient's Brain (US National Library of Medicine)

First, as the placebo effect is basically a psychosocial context effect, these data indicate that different social stimuli, such as words and rituals of the therapeutic act, may change the chemistry and circuitry of the patient's brain. Second, the mechanisms that are activated by placebos are the same as those activated by drugs, which suggests a cognitive/affective interference with drug action. Third, if prefrontal functioning is impaired, placebo responses are reduced or totally lacking, as occurs in dementia of the Alzheimer's type.
 
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A.B.

Senior Member
Messages
3,780
I think the success of homeopathy is a symptom of medicine failing to help with many problems.

That nothing is better than what medicine has to offer speaks volumes.

So rather than fighting homeopathy, which will come across as tyrannical, one should acknowledge that medicine is failing in some areas and try to address the reasons for this.

Toxic drugs, ineffective or even harmful therapies, psychosomatic explanations, the whole system revolving around profit for big pharma (managing rather than curing disease) are all good reasons for patients to search alternatives.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
@JPV, it may be that things that do not work should have a place in our health care system, but one should be open and honest about it! The reason homeopathy works for some is because they get to speak to someone about their problems. Patients experience that someone listens and believe in their symptoms. The problem is when someone claim to cure diseases they can't with sugar pills.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,266
Location
UK
If homepoathy is quackery, then vets who use it extensively, would not be able to continue. It is used extensively also in Germany, and believe me, Germans are not easily hoodwinked when it comes to health matters. They are way ahead of most other countries in this and the emphasis is on natural remedies wherever possible.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
A Norwegian TV program called Folkeopplysningen went to the largest producer of homeopatic medicine in France. They diluted the substance so many times, that it was impossible to see that the water contained anything but water and something to make the water look coloured.

@PeterPositive, one should be able to generalise when major meta studies show no effect. It is time to say no to this bullshit.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
If homepoathy is quackery, then vets who use it extensively, would not be able to continue. It is used extensively also in Germany, and believe me, Germans are not easily hoodwinked when it comes to health matters. They are way ahead of most other countries in this and the emphasis is on natural remedies wherever possible.

So you reject all large meta studies which shows absolutely no effect? The fact that governments subsidise it doesn't make it work more.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
I think the success of homeopathy is a symptom of medicine failing to help with many problems.

That nothing is better than what medicine has to offer speaks volumes.

So rather than fighting homeopathy, which will come across as tyrannical, one should acknowledge that medicine is failing in some areas and try to address the reasons for this.

Toxic drugs, ineffective or even harmful therapies, psychosomatic explanations, the whole system revolving around profit for big pharma (managing rather than curing disease) are all good reasons for patients to search alternatives.

Who is not acknowledging that medicine doesn't have all answers? That does not mean that quackery is OK. The homeopathy lobby should acknowledge that it does nnot work better than placebo. They should say it as it is. "If you need someone to talk to, come see us".
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
@JPV, it may be that things that do not work should have a place in our health care system, but one should be open and honest about it!

The point is, as the science paper that I posted earlier shows, placebos DO work. And I'm not convinced that all homeopathic remedies only work as placebos. I was just playing "Devil's Advocate".
 

JPV

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858
Homeopaths Under Assault in Australia After NHMRC Threatens to Declare Their Work Unethical (Natural News)

A draft document not intended for public release has revealed that the National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) in Australia is planning to nix homeopathy from its list of covered medical treatments. The Age reports that the draft paper, which was recently leaked to reporters, dubs homeopathy an "unethical" form of medical treatment, and alleges that patients who choose homeopathy over conventional medicine could be putting themselves at risk.

Though it has been used safely and effectively for hundreds of years by millions of people around the world, homeopathy is increasingly finding itself in the crosshairs of government-run healthcare programs like NHMRC that are heavily influenced by pharmaceutical interests determined to destroy access to natural forms of treatment. And unless the natural health community fights back, the practice of homeopathy “down under” could soon be a thing of the past.

Contrary to conventional belief, homeopathy is not merely a placebo. Numerous peer-reviewed scientific studies conducted over the years have shown that homeopathy can help treat respiratory ailments and allergies, influenza, fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, childhood diarrhea, post-surgical abdominal surgery recovery, and attention deficit disorder (ADD), as well as many other conditions.
 
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JPV

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858
Response to NH&MRC Draft Report on Homeopathy (Hpathy)

The NH&MRC report concluded “There is no reliable evidence that homeopathy is effective for treating health conditions“. It began by making the following exclusions of evidence from its analysis:

  • Evidence of “whether homeopathy is good for general health.”
  • “Evidence for whether or not homeopathy is effective for preventing health conditions”.
  • Any evidence examining the economic cost-benefits of homeopathy.
  • Evidence supporting homeopathy that was not derived from “prospective, controlled studies”, such as “observational studies, individual experiences and testimonials, case series and reports, or research that was not done using standard methods.”

Then considering evidence from prospective, controlled studies, the NH&MRC claimed that there were “no health conditions for which there was reliable evidence that homeopathy was effective. No good-quality, well-designed studies with enough participants for a meaningful result reported either that homeopathy caused greater health improvements than placebo, or caused health improvements equal to those of another treatment”. They made this claim despite the fact that in the studies listed by Optum (the research group commissioned by the NH&MRC) there were many studies reporting “significant effects in favour of homeopathy” with Jadad scores as high as 5.

So after eliminating by definition a significant body of “real world” evidence supporting homeopathy, by defining away the positive health promotion and disease prevention consequences of homeopathy and focussing on disease treatment, by ignoring the potential economic cost-benefits of homeopathy, by accepting only limited types of evidence and within that body of evidence categorising all evidence supporting homeopathy as poor quality despite the existence of positive studies of high quality, the NH&MRC has concluded that there is no evidence supporting homeopathy! Many will take an interest when Senate Estimates eventually reveal the cost to taxpayers of reaching a conclusion which was inevitable given the question asked, the methodology used and the bias in the report.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
A Norwegian TV program called Folkeopplysningen went to the largest producer of homeopatic medicine in France.

@PeterPositive, one should be able to generalise when major meta studies show no effect. It is time to say no to this bullshit.
The topic is controversial. You can find equally positive "major meta studies" that provide evidence that homeopathy works.

There is actually only one "major meta study", the 2005 Shang et al meta analysis published in the Lancet, upon which most of the criticism has been built upon and for which there's valid counter criticism and concern for multiple methodological problems.

They diluted the substance so many times, that it was impossible to see that the water contained anything but water and something to make the water look coloured.
What you are talking about is the usual criticism about the Avogadro threshold below which there is no detectable molecules of the original substance.

It is a generalization fallacy to state that ALL homeopathic remedies don't contain the active substance. It just dipends on the dilution declared on the preparation.

Example: Chamomilla 5C does contain active molecules of the original substance. This not even controversial. Most modern homeopathy, (e.g. pioneered in Germany by Dr, Rekeweg) contains decimal dilutions, which contain ponderal (i.e. measurable) amounts of the active ingredient.

Critical thinking does require knowing the facts and making the effort to discriminate, otherwise we end up just making the same logical errors we're trying to correct.

This is not say that homeopathy has its own problems. Some criticism is absolutely valid. But this applies to any practice and department of human activities.

Thanks
 

JPV

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Messages
858
It is a generalization fallacy to state that ALL homeopathic remedies don't contain the active substance. It just dipends on the dilution declared on the preparation.

Not to mention that extreme dilution of supplements is very likely the practice of a few corrupt companies. The pharmaceutical industry certainly has it's share of corruption too. Doesn't mean that whole industries should be penalized because of the actions of a few.

All of this smacks of pharmaceutical industry manipulation of government studies, as far as I'm concerned.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
If homepoathy is quackery, then vets who use it extensively, would not be able to continue. It is used extensively also in Germany, and believe me, Germans are not easily hoodwinked when it comes to health matters. They are way ahead of most other countries in this and the emphasis is on natural remedies wherever possible.

I took rabbits twice to a homoeopath for homoeopathic meds in both cases these rabbits were in a very very bad way and the homeopathic med did actually fix them and very fast too!!

One of the rabbits had got caught up in some string in his cage and it was 3 days later when I noticed he was always at back of cage before I realised the issue. The string had wrapped tight around one of his paws.. his paw actually looked like it had died below where the string was (I thought his foot was going to fall off, it was black and hard in a not good way, like dead withered dried flesh. I know a vet would of cut this off).

I took him to a homoeopath as I thought thou the foot would probably just fall off (like a rung lambs tail) but was worried he could get an infection or blood poisoning from this. 5-7 days of homeopathic med, that foot was completely normal!! I still do not believe what I saw but it did heal.
...........

Other rabbit ripped a huge actual hole in his side with wire, he was a tiny dwarf rabbit and I could see his insides, not only this is when one picked him up, his whole body oozed pus and it was like his whole body under his skin had got infected. A trip to the homeopath with rabbit and some homeopathic meds had that infection gone within 1-2 days and the hole healed in 6-10 days.
.............

It has also helped me and my kids at times.. I'll share how it helped me with one of my ME symptoms next post.
 
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lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
What do you think about drugs that are known to have side effects that can cause death? Should they be banned, even if the incident rate is relatively low?

Everything must be banned than including growing plants tnat produce toxin.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
I was peeing 6-8 times a night at one point and a guy I knew at that time who was a well known homeopath (he had clients flying here from overseas, he was very good), decided to try to treat me, he didn't tell me what symptoms of ME/CFS he was trying to treat (I guess he tried to match the med to as many of my symptoms and me as he could as that is how homeopathy usually works)

It was maybe even within 24hrs that my near constant need to pee issue which was driving me crazing as it affected my sleep so much, actually stopped. Anyway, it was within 1-2 days of going onto homoeopathic med. Unfortunately that was the only thing the homeopathic meds helped in me with but I sure was grateful for that symptom I had for ages going.

*Note.. successful homoeopathic treatment is very dependant on the skill of the homoeopath matching the person with the best homeopathic med for the person

. Homeopathic meds do not work like normal meds in which it is a case that you take a certain med for a certain disease or symptom. They don't work very well like that though there is a few general ones for things out there but they aren't the "best ones to use" as best matched to person.

The more the homeopath can match to the individual, the better the med will work. Best with skilled, experienced homeopath to do the matching. So unless the study is done with a skilled homeopath and instead giving like one homeopath med for all with a certain condition, the result wouldn't be great as that isn't how homeopathic meds work. Its not a one size fits all thing to be using.
 

Gijs

Senior Member
Messages
690
Only 12 percent of the regular medicine works, Clinical Evidence Handbook (2012 BMJ Publishing Group). I don't see any double blind study about homeopathy. So how can someone say it is quackery. Don't forget that vaccination is the same principle as homeopathy. I would like see good quality of science not bias.
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
The point is, as the science paper that I posted earlier shows, placebos DO work. And I'm not convinced that all homeopathic remedies only work as placebos. I was just playing "Devil's Advocate".

I am not saying that placebo does not work. I am saying that the meds they give you does not.


Why refuse science? It is time to say goodbye to homeopathy. The proof is there.

Why not use money and energy on something that does work?
 

Gijs

Senior Member
Messages
690
I am not saying that placebo does not work. I am saying that the meds they give you does not.


Why refuse science? It is time to say goodbye to homeopathy. The proof is there.

Why not use money and energy on something that does work?

Sorry but i think you are a little shortsighted. Why you talk about science without good evidence of double blind study ,RCT and replication? That is no sciece, it is bias.