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TMG, Sam-e, and the Deadlock Quartet

acrosstheveil

Senior Member
Messages
373
I am up to 16mg of methylfolate a day, 650mg l-carnitine fumarate, 30mg methylb12, and 10mg adb12 a day right now. I do have some improved mental energy but it is not as significant as I had hoped for. Could I be missing something? Should I try adding Sam-e or TMG? Which should I try first? And, what are some other factors which can inhibit methylation?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I am up to 16mg of methylfolate a day, 650mg l-carnitine fumarate, 30mg methylb12, and 10mg adb12 a day right now. I do have some improved mental energy but it is not as significant as I had hoped for. Could I be missing something? Should I try adding Sam-e or TMG? Which should I try first? And, what are some other factors which can inhibit methylation?

Hi Acrosstheveil,

B1 and B2 > 20-30mg each daily, b3 > 100mg or thereabouts tends to increase need to potassium and/or folate and reduce effectiveness. Normal inhibitors, NAC, Glutathione, sets of glutathione precursors, whey, folic acid, folinic acid, folate, folinate, natural veggie extract b-complex or veggie extracted folates can all cause folate deficiency symptoms for a number of possible reasons.. SAM-e can often get things started in similar situations. Then TMG. After that a switch to the ATP pathway with biotin and then D-ribose while keeping the others going. Some people appear to find cod liver oil extra Vit A & D with a total of 5000 IU of D.. Zinc, 50mg or so is also a possibility. I had every one of these except D and biotin, make sizable differences in effectiveness of methylation. Zinc was intense enough I had to do it in a two step titration. Sometimes some of the multi ingredient types of "neuro" drugs can have glutathione precursors in them. Sometimes two different products each give you one of a pair.

Unusual inhibiters; arsenic, bismuth (very rare but can be very damaging), cyanide and some other chemical toxins, chemo therapy drugs whether used for arthritis or cancer or whatever, Metaformin and probably a dozen or two other medical drugs.

Improved mental energy is good. How many FMS/CFS suymptoms do you have from the following lists? Did it increase as you increased doses of which Item(s)? On the lists of symptoms by nutrient what nutrient groups do you have symptoms in? Have you tried ALCAR or the liquid Jarrow carnitine (freebase). LCF is a percentage thing but isn't 100%. Where it makes a difference it's ALCAR about 10%. The freebase works for both but a mix works for neither. The ultimate maker of the carnitine should be Sigma Tau. Jarrow, Drs Best and a number of other brands get their carnitine from Sigma Tau. That seems to be the most reliable maker, under many retail names.

There are a lot of these little details than can make a huge difference. Good luck.
 

acrosstheveil

Senior Member
Messages
373
did you mean to include a link to the lists?

i have lots of exhuastion, brain fog, neurological pain, stomach bloating, mast cell activation issues, many food/chemical sensitivities, and agitation. Could ALCAR work better than LCF? I remember taking ALCAR many years ago and it was VERY potent neurologically speaking. almost too much sometimes. I feel like the LCF isn't doing anything even when I take a large dose....I am still flat out exhuasted. On the otherhand, when I took alcar years ago, I remember getting strong mental (almost forced) energy.

so you are saying alcar should be more effective than LCF or did I misinterpret you?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
did you mean to include a link to the lists?

i have lots of exhuastion, brain fog, neurological pain, stomach bloating, mast cell activation issues, many food/chemical sensitivities, and agitation. Could ALCAR work better than LCF? I remember taking ALCAR many years ago and it was VERY potent neurologically speaking. almost too much sometimes. I feel like the LCF isn't doing anything even when I take a large dose....I am still flat out exhuasted. On the otherhand, when I took alcar years ago, I remember getting strong mental (almost forced) energy.

so you are saying alcar should be more effective than LCF or did I misinterpret you?

HI Acrosstheveil,

From what you say the ALCAR is the form that works for you. The good news about carnitine is that the results are strongly dose related. I had to titrate from 64mg to 500mg. 500mg right off the bat was a blown away amount, way way way too much at first. Now it merely maintains equilibrium. Some people have to titrate from as low as 100mcg a day (3 divided doses of 33mcg) because of they immensity of their response. Carnitine can do amazing things in healing and generating energy (ATP) in the body and nervous system. The list is around somewhere and I see if I can find it. I don't remember what list I had in mind when I wrote that. So which list(s) are you interested in?
 

acrosstheveil

Senior Member
Messages
373
my sensitivities just keep getting worse and worse. I saw a new doctor today and i had a reaction to something in his office. not sure what the cause is.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
@acrosstheveil , @Freddd , or anyone else - are there starting and target dosages for SAMe and TMG? recommended brands?
For SAMe you can split a 200mg tablet and start with 1/2... (100mg). if no side effects you can take the whole tablet. Typical dosage are between 200 and 600mg. Sometimes higher for depression or other problems.

Similar thing with TMG. You will probably find 500mg tablets which you can split in halves or thirds to see if you tolerate it.

At least that's what I do, since I learned the hard way that what seems a low/normal dose of a certain supplement it's not for me. My body needs small amounts first and after a while I can increase without problems.

Actually TMG is the exception to the rule... I can't take any. It rips my stomach apart :(
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
freddd, i was referring to the lists of cfs/fms symptoms you referred to.

This is the list with the symptoms sorted by what nutrients had effects on symptoms. This does not include all the symptoms from the raw symptoms list, just the responsive ones. Some symptoms appear multiple times reflecting different orders of response in various people.

SYMPTOMS LIST 01/03/2014 V 1.0

In this post this is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded almost entirely or entirely with basics 5 star MeCbl – methylcobalamin – Methylb12 - Mb12 - Mecobl . Many started improving in hours. Others took 9 months to correct.

morning joint stiffness and pain
paleness
acid reflux
nausea
daily vomiting
standing with eyes closed, lose balance
hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity - glove anesthesia
feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity - stocking anesthesia
glove and stocking anesthesia
neuropathic bladder
unable to release bladder, mild to severe
unable to fully empty the bladder
fecal incontinence - occasionally to frequently
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
always feeling cold
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
sleep disorders
non restorative sleep
Night terrors
Prolonged hypnagogic or hypnopompic states transitioning to/from sleep
Sleep paralysis
alteration of touch all over body, normal touch can be unpleasant and painful
alterations and loss of taste
taste hallucinations
smell hallucinations
sound hallucinations
visual hallucinations
alterations and loss of smell
loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically
loss or alteration of smell and taste of potato chips specifically
roughening and increased raspiness of voice, mb12 can smooth it in mid word
blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return
Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss
optic atrophy
centrocecal scotomata
hypersensitivity/intolerance to bright light
intolerance to loud sounds
intolerance to multiple sounds
burning muscle pain
diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return possible
tinnitus - ringing in ears
sore burning tongue

This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

Bursitis
stomach not emptying
frequent vomiting
acid regurgitation
dyspepsia
flatulence
altered bowel habits
abdominal pain
loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 containing foods
nutrient specific anorexia
intermittent constipation
intermittent diarrhea
irritable bowel syndrome
sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
anorexia
Bulimia
Hypersensitivity to touch
Hypersensitivity to odors
Hypersensitivity to tastes
Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symptoms
Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
burning bladder (no UTI)
painful urgency (no UTI)
burning urethra (no UTI)
Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
elevated LDH
big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
platelet dysfunction, low count
white cell changes, low count
hyper segmented neutrophils
headaches
inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
asthma
chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
chronic sinus congestion
dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
chronic infections, many varieties possible
Seborrhic dermatitis
dandruff
eczema
dermatitis
skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
poor hair condition
thin nails
transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
mouth sensitive to hot and cold
sore burning tongue
beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
teeth sensitive to hot and cold
canker sores


with p5p added

Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
impaired white blood cell response
poor resistance to infections
easy bruising
pronounced anemia
macrocytic anemia
megablastic anemia
pernicious anemia
decreased blood clotting
MCV > 93 first warning,
MCV > 97 alert
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

Plus Vitamin E
Child with neural tube defects

mother of child with neural tube defect

These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


lack of dreaming
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
macrocytic anemia
metallic taste in mouth
Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis


Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
loss of orgasmic intensity
unsatisfying orgasms
inability to orgasm
loss and/or change of genital sensations
burning genital skin sensation
unable to feel aroused
numb genital skin
low sex hormones

MEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
erectile disfunction men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
low sperm count
poor sperm motility
Poor sperm quality
no sperm


WOMEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone
low estrogen

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
post partum depression
post partum psychosis

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
Frequent miscarriage

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
False positive pap smears, defective cells
menstrual symptoms


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13, Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.



These symptoms are what responded very well to CNS penetrating doses of MeCbl either as 50mg sublingual single 4-5 hour dose or 4 x 7.5mg or 3 x 10mg or for some 2 x 15mg subcutaneous MeCbl injections. Metafolin in some way enhances retention of AdoCbl and MeCbl with excretion visibly decreased. A sublingual dose of 1-2 tablets each hour added for 12 hours appears to generate substantial CNS penetration as well.



CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils


Elevated CSF Hcy
Low CSF cobalamin
limbs feel stiff
Drowsy


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl

dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow or present for life
Clumsiness
CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl - Metafolin
Slow to adapt to night vision


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – LCF

Difficulty in word finding


CNS penetrating dose MeCbl – AdoCbl – Metafolin – Omega-3 oils

Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible (with mb12) coma may occur
demyelinated areas on nerves
sub acute combined degeneration
axonal degeneration of spinal cord
unsteadiness of gait
ataxic gait, particularly in dark
positive Romberg
positive Lhermittes
Loss of motor control over some or all of toes
Loss of motor control over part or all of feet
Loss of sense of joint position
sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement
sudden "ice pick" pain
decreased reflexes
brisk reflexes
Foot Drop
tripping over toes
injuring toes catching top of toes on floor
general feeling of weakness


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/04/13 Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.


These symptoms are what responded very well to L-carnitine fumarate AND AdoCbl for the first two items

L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – Metafolin - MeCbl



weight loss involuntary
muscular atrophy
exercise does not build muscle



L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin – AdoCbl - MeCbl

weight gain, watery fat
edema


L-carnitine fumarate – AdoCbl – MeCbl – Metafolin


mild to extremely severe fatigue
continuous extremely severe fatigue
easy fatigability
severe abnormal muscle fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death
weakness
muscle pain especially around attachment points to bones
Eighteen severely tender muscle spots of FMS



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate


exercise debilitates for up to a week, making things much worse
accumulating muscle pains following exertion
sore muscles throughout body
lack of muscle recovery after exercise
High urinary MMA



AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

congestive heart failure
Elevated CSF MMA
Elevated uMMA


Approximate timing of my startup of individual items that being considered here, this gives a quite distinctive pattern for each nutrient or set of nutrients: 03/05/13, Version 1.1

Others mentioned similar patterns and variations.

1. Initially – Mecbl

2. +5 months 400mcg SAM-E

3. + 4 months AdoCbl

4. + 3 months titrate +50mg zinc

5. +4 years 400mcg Metafolin

6. +1 year LCF

7. + 1 month TMG 1000mg/day

8. 30mg MeCbl injections (3 or 4) daily,

9. +0 Reduce SAM-e to 200mcg

10. + 4 years remove TMG

11. +6 months increase SAM-E to 800mcg

12. Next 1 year titrating Metafolin and finding all the reasons I get folate insufficiency, early partial methylation block by effect.





MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate – Metafolin

shortness of breath, oxygen hunger
heart palpitations


MeCbl - AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

extremely sore neck muscles reversing normal curvature of neck
painfully tight, stiff muscles, especially legs and arms
frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body
weak pulse



MeCbl - AdoCbl

Confusion
Disorientation
Difficulty in word finding


MeCbl - AdoCbl - Metafolin

irritable
depression
SAD - Seasonal Affective Disorder
mental slowing
personality changes
chronic malaise
poor concentration
moodiness
tiredness
mood swings
memory loss
listlessness
impaired connection to others
mentally fuzzy, foggy, brainfog
dizziness - even unable to walk
Vertigo


MeCbl – Metafolin – AdoCbl – L-carnitine fumarate

psychosis, including many of the most florid psychoses seen in literature, megaloblastic madness
Alzheimer's
delirium
dementia
paranoia
delusions
hallucinations - multisensory
anxiety or tension
nervousness
mania
Widespread pain throughout body



A caution, those with anxiety and panic symptoms may respond with extreme moods of increased fear, anxiety, panic, anger rage, homicidal rage and profound depression, usually in repeatable sequences following LCF or ALCAR even at levels of 1mg oral. A micro titration of carnitine would be cautious. While most find the moods intolerable, certain persons have been able to tolerate these (both past) and current, to find they can fade after some months of consumption. A few people may find similar, maybe somewhat lesser, response to MeCbl or more likely AdoCbl. As these are less controllable than LCF which can be micro dosed, they should be considered first.