Folate? Potassium? Start-up

[burgeo10]

Hi,

Many thanks in advance. I'm hugely grateful to all those who give advice on the forum, i've learned so much

Having received the results of my methylation pathway panel ( the results of which are here http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...with-hdri-methylation-panel.3318/#post-539645)

For the past few months I have been taking 1mg of mb12 from enzymatic therapy sublingual, 2 x 500mg of l-carn fumarate daily and 2,000mcg of thorne folate daily.

Because of this i decided i didnt need to start as low as others on the forum.

I began this morning by taking 800mcg of metafolin.

1 hour later i took 1 enzymatic therapy sublingual at the same time as 1/8th of a source naturals dibenozide.

2 hours later i took 1 x 500mg l-carn fumarate

So far the only symptom changes ive had are mental. I feel somewhat anxious and foggy. My questions are:

Is this just atp start up? Ive read that starting up can cause anxiety if doses are too high, should i lower them and continue, or:

is this folate or potassium deficiency? ive also read that anxiety can be due to folate deficiency or potassium deficiency, so perhaps i should titrate one of these. however because i am not achy or suffering muscle twitching i believe its not either of those? i could well be wrong.

Thanks very much

Tom

 

[Critterina]

@burgeo10 ,

Could this be coincidence? It looks like the only thing you've added is dibencozide.

Thorne folate is methylfolate, only slightly different than metafolin - I wouldn't expect 800 mcg metafolin to do you in when you've been taking 2000 mcg Thorne.

My suggestion is to do the same thing tomorrow without the dibencozide and see what happens.

Folate deficiency symptoms are physical - usually corner mouth sores and acne to begin with. Potassium deficiency symptoms are usually muscular - cramps, twitching, and feeling awful. Anxiety and fogginess don't fit either of these.

Good luck!

 

[burgeo10]

@burgeo10 ,

Could this be coincidence? It looks like the only thing you've added is dibencozide.

Thorne folate is methylfolate, only slightly different than metafolin - I wouldn't expect 800 mcg metafolin to do you in when you've been taking 2000 mcg Thorne.

My suggestion is to do the same thing tomorrow without the dibencozide and see what happens.

Folate deficiency symptoms are physical - usually corner mouth sores and acne to begin with. Potassium deficiency symptoms are usually muscular - cramps, twitching, and feeling awful. Anxiety and fogginess don't fit either of these.

Good luck!

Thanks @Critterina . I don't think it could be a coincidence, but at the moment I agree with you. Tomorrow I will do the same and see what happens!

 

[ughh]

I experienced something similar when I first added adb12. In my case, it went away a week or so after upping the dose(mb12 5mg 7x per week, adb12 10mg 3x per week from 20mg 1x per week)

 

[burgeo10]

I experienced something similar when I first added adb12. In my case, it went away a week or so after upping the dose(mb12 5mg 7x per week, adb12 10mg 3x per week from 20mg 1x per week)

You started with such high doses? Are you saying you think I should continue through the anxiety/fog? I didn't do any dibemcozide today and felt a lot less anxious, so probably the cause. Maybe I'll start on a lower dose tomorrow @Critterina? I did wake up last night in a hot sweat, I'm not sure if that's a symptom of anything? And I felt a bit different today, hard to explain exactly how.

 

[Critterina]

@Critterina? I did wake up last night in a hot sweat, I'm not sure if that's a symptom of anything? And I felt a bit different today, hard to explain exactly how.

Sorry, I don't see it fitting into any pattern I know of. Your body was working at something, maybe fighting off an infection.

Hey, if you got a mild cold virus, would that have explained the anxious fog? I sometimes feel that way when I'm getting sick. There was a very weak bug going around north central Texas this week. One morning you're sure you're getting sick, but by the end of the day it's gone. Even my mom, who is 92, was better by 5 pm.

 

[ughh]

You started with such high doses? Are you saying you think I should continue through the anxiety/fog? I didn't do any dibemcozide today and felt a lot less anxious, so probably the cause. Maybe I'll start on a lower dose tomorrow

Of the deadlock quartet, all but the LCF resulted in some uncomfortable startup symptoms. I figured I'd just soldier through the adb12 startup like I did for mb12 and methylfolate. Many on this forum are much more sensitive to dosage than I am, and I wouldn't advise taking the doses I'm taking if you're just starting out.

 

[burgeo10]

@Critterina I'm now quite sure it was the dibemcozide, I only did the metafolin and mb12 over the weekend and had no anxiety. Today I did a crumb of dibemcozide and felt no different, I guess now I should try titrating?

 

[burgeo10]

@Freddd @caledonia @ahmo @Critterina Hi all. You seem like you know alot about methylation and Freddd's protocol so I'd appreciate hugely if you could comment on my situation. A week ago I started Freddd's protocol, with

800mcg metafolin
1mg mb12
1/10 of a 10mg dibencozide
and 1 500mg l-carn fumarate pill

so far ive felt more mentaility clear, but my fatigue is getting worse. i have tried up to 1g of potassium daily but to no effect. i wonder if i could be making myself worse. its my fear that perhaps i
have POTS ( i had a tilt table which had a mixed result), and that potassium might be worsening my condition.
i have had an hdri methylation panel which suggested a block, which can be found in the link at the top. however im still not sure if methylation is right for me, especially as i do not have the MTHFR mutation. I did however have a doctors data urinary test which showed fast phase 1 and slow phase 2, which suggests methylation could be impaired? my other theory is that i could be low in cofactors as i started the protocol before waitin for my b-plex to arrive from biocare. anyway, i would love to know what you think! thanks

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd @caledonia @ahmo @Critterina Hi all. You seem like you know alot about methylation and Freddd's protocol so I'd appreciate hugely if you could comment on my situation. A week ago I started Freddd's protocol, with

800mcg metafolin
1mg mb12
1/10 of a 10mg dibencozide
and 1 500mg l-carn fumarate pill

so far ive felt more mentaility clear, but my fatigue is getting worse. i have tried up to 1g of potassium daily but to no effect. i wonder if i could be making myself worse. its my fear that perhaps i
have POTS ( i had a tilt table which had a mixed result), and that potassium might be worsening my condition.
i have had an hdri methylation panel which suggested a block, which can be found in the link at the top. however im still not sure if methylation is right for me, especially as i do not have the MTHFR mutation. I did however have a doctors data urinary test which showed fast phase 1 and slow phase 2, which suggests methylation could be impaired? my other theory is that i could be low in cofactors as i started the protocol before waitin for my b-plex to arrive from biocare. anyway, i would love to know what you think! thanks

Hi Burgeo,

The active b12 protocol needs all the basics in place, such as b-complex with folic acid of CyCbl, magnesium, calcium, A,D,E,C, etc. There are a whole lot of things that have to be present. It's much more like a 20 way balance and interaction. I think that is pretty correct no matter how you intend to go about it. Also, folate and B12 have the characteristic of being able to be sufficient in some tissues and deficiency symptoms in other tissues.

 

[burgeo10]

@Freddd thanks Fred. Do you think that without the cofactors in place the quartet would lead to worse fatigue?

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd thanks Fred. Do you think that without the cofactors in place the quartet would lead to worse fatigue?

Yes. What can happen is some things start healing and taking more resources which takes them away from other areas. That is very common. I called it feeling "convalescent" in my own thinking about it. To me it felt like the day after getting a pneumonia knocked down with antibiotics but the body is still hammered. Also, the MeCbl tends to make everything more noticeable. That helps one find and follow the clues to healing. If you are like me then yiou would have poor mitochondrial functioning or few of them or both and maybe they can't support with energy (ATP) all that activity. It's also very easy to overdo physically and crash. I did that over and over again.

 

[burgeo10]

Yes. What can happen is some things start healing and taking more resources which takes them away from other areas. That is very common. I called it feeling "convalescent" in my own thinking about it. To me it felt like the day after getting a pneumonia knocked down with antibiotics but the body is still hammered. Also, the MeCbl tends to make everything more noticeable. That helps one find and follow the clues to healing. If you are like me then yiou would have poor mitochondrial functioning or few of them or both and maybe they can't support with energy (ATP) all that activity. It's also very easy to overdo physically and crash. I did that over and over again.

Ah! I can't thank you enough for the help you give Fred. I will continue on the protocol but make sure I add cofactors. My fear was that potassium might be making me weak due to pots? Or a lack of potassium might be causing the tiredness. I took 600mg and noticed nothing bar slightly more tiredness, though that may have been coincedental. One more question if you have time! I started taking l-carb fumarate in September without the rest of the quartet and had a good energy increase and after 45 mins of taking would notice a kind if mental focusing. Slowly these benefits disappeared, could this be due to lack of cofactors? Thanks

 

[Freddd]

Ah! I can't thank you enough for the help you give Fred. I will continue on the protocol but make sure I add cofactors. My fear was that potassium might be making me weak due to pots? Or a lack of potassium might be causing the tiredness. I took 600mg and noticed nothing bar slightly more tiredness, though that may have been coincedental. One more question if you have time! I started taking l-carb fumarate in September without the rest of the quartet and had a good energy increase and after 45 mins of taking would notice a kind if mental focusing. Slowly these benefits disappeared, could this be due to lack of cofactors? Thanks

It would certainly seem that way. LCF transports the fat through the cell into the mitochondria. Alpha lipoic acid is said to increase the effectiveness about 50%

Biotin can also influence the rate of production.

 

[Critterina]

@Freddd @caledonia @ahmo @Critterina Hi all. You seem like you know alot about methylation and Freddd's protocol so I'd appreciate hugely if you could comment on my situation. A week ago I started Freddd's protocol, with

800mcg metafolin
1mg mb12
1/10 of a 10mg dibencozide
and 1 500mg l-carn fumarate pill

so far ive felt more mentaility clear, but my fatigue is getting worse. i have tried up to 1g of potassium daily but to no effect. i wonder if i could be making myself worse. its my fear that perhaps i
have POTS ( i had a tilt table which had a mixed result), and that potassium might be worsening my condition.
i have had an hdri methylation panel which suggested a block, which can be found in the link at the top. however im still not sure if methylation is right for me, especially as i do not have the MTHFR mutation. I did however have a doctors data urinary test which showed fast phase 1 and slow phase 2, which suggests methylation could be impaired? my other theory is that i could be low in cofactors as i started the protocol before waitin for my b-plex to arrive from biocare. anyway, i would love to know what you think! thanks

For fatigue and for poor circulation, I like 10 mg NADH sublingual and 2x/day taking 5 mg ribose. But there could be a lot of other things going on, like Freddd was talking about above.

 

[caledonia]

That's weird, your link goes to another post.
Here it is again for anyone looking for it.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ith-hdri-methylation-panel.33178/#post-539604

You can interpret it with Rich Vank's interpretation.
http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...results-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011

At a glance, all your folates look low, yet you say you don't have MTHFR. There could be mercury or lead blocking MTHFR.

The SAM/SAH ratio can tell you if CBS may be an issue or not.

I don't see glutathione mentioned - has that been removed from the test?

Please also look at the first four links in my signature, starting with the Methylation Made Easy videos.

 

[burgeo10]

That's weird, your link goes to another post.
Here it is again for anyone looking for it.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ith-hdri-methylation-panel.33178/#post-539604

You can interpret it with Rich Vank's interpretation.
http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...results-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011

At a glance, all your folates look low, yet you say you don't have MTHFR. There could be mercury or lead blocking MTHFR.

The SAM/SAH ratio can tell you if CBS may be an issue or not.

I don't see glutathione mentioned - has that been removed from the test?

Please also look at the first four links in my signature, starting with the Methylation Made Easy videos.

Thanks @caledonia. My SAM was 211 SAH 53.1, what does that imply about cbs?

Oxidised glutathione was 0.54

Reduced glutathione 3.0

Thanks!

 

[burgeo10]

That's weird, your link goes to another post.
Here it is again for anyone looking for it.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ith-hdri-methylation-panel.33178/#post-539604

You can interpret it with Rich Vank's interpretation.
http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...results-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011

At a glance, all your folates look low, yet you say you don't have MTHFR. There could be mercury or lead blocking MTHFR.

The SAM/SAH ratio can tell you if CBS may be an issue or not.

I don't see glutathione mentioned - has that been removed from the test?

Please also look at the first four links in my signature, starting with the Methylation Made Easy videos.

I should also add that my urine sulphate is always low, but perhaps my cbs and bhmt are the reason freddds protocol made me worse?

 

[caledonia]

Thanks @caledonia. My SAM was 211 SAH 53.1, what does that imply about cbs?

Oxidised glutathione was 0.54

Reduced glutathione 3.0

Thanks!

Rich's interpretation explains the sum of SAM and SAH.

You want to have a lot more reduced glutathione than oxidized glutathione, otherwise you're having oxidative stress. I can't tell from the numbers you gave unless I had the reference range to look at. Again, Rich's interpretation will help to interpret that.

I had a ton of oxidized and almost no reduced

 

[burgeo10]

Rich's interpretation explains the sum of SAM and SAH.

You want to have a lot more reduced glutathione than oxidized glutathione, otherwise you're having oxidative stress. I can't tell from the numbers you gave unless I had the reference range to look at. Again, Rich's interpretation will help to interpret that.

I had a ton of oxidized and almost no reduced

Uh oh!! From what I've read you seem to have improved alot! Do you have any idea why freddds protocol would make me a lot worse? It was a gradual effect over a week and I only added adb12, potassium switched Thorne mthf to metafolin and 1mg adb12. My theories are, other nutrient depletion (I wasn't supplement many), cbs causing issues , low potassium or folate induced deficiency or maybe I'm completely wrong and methylation isn't even an issue!