Serotonin the new 'Cure All'

[justy]

@justy can you say which SSRI?

Citalopram

 

[minkeygirl]

Celexa. thanks.

 

[Leopardtail]

Citalopram

I had a really bad time with Citalopram, cuased my OI, messed up my sleep and generally caused havoc

 

[AndyPandy]

I had a very bad reaction to just one Zoloft tablet (SSRI) about 15 years before ME. Never again.

 

[justy]

I wish I knew what it was that made M.E patients more prone to problems with SSRI's. I know Dr Myhill has mentioned this, but is there actually any research to back this up - I know a lot of us report problems, but that's anecdotal...

 

[Wildcat]

.
I am sure that a few years ago one of the american doctors wrote that ME sufferers should not be prescribed SSRIs due to such high rates of bad side effects. Can't remember which doctor.
.

.

 

[heapsreal]

I wish I knew what it was that made M.E patients more prone to problems with SSRI's. I know Dr Myhill has mentioned this, but is there actually any research to back this up - I know a lot of us report problems, but that's anecdotal...

Its is strange because tryptophan and 5htp do increase serotonin levels but seem to have very different effects to ssir's. I wonder if ssri's increase serotonin way about what we can do with supplements, maybe some type of built in pathway of metabolizing supps that only increases the levels so far??

Also if u look into thye pharmacology of ssri's, some will also have effects on other neurotransmitters, an example i can think of is that zoloft does have mild dopamine reuptake qualities. probably find other affect other neurotransmitters slightly in non ME people but maybe more so in ME people. From what i have read lexapro is the most pure when it comes to affecting serotonin and not other neurotransmitters. I have found low doses lexapro and zoloft in the past helped me mood wise when in a hole but didnt improve energy or help pain or any other ME symptoms really. could be could for those with alot of emotional stress going on. eg lexapro a normal dose is 10-20mg, i think cfsers should start at 2.5mg, move to 5mg if they need to and no adverse effects.

 

[adreno]

So I found this article which might explain a few things for us.

It seems both IL-1 and TNF increase NREM and suppress REM sleep, through different mechanisms. One of these mechanism is an interaction with the 5-HT (serotonin) system:

Collectively, the results of the studies reviewed suggest that the IL-1 and 5-HT systems engage in reciprocal interactions that contribute to the regulation of NREM sleep. In the POA/BF IL-1 enhances axonal 5-HT release and 5-HT stimulates the synthesis of IL-1, which inhibits wake-promoting neurons. IL-1 also inhibits wake-active serotonergic cell bodies in the DRN. Thus, IL-1 exerts opposite effects on serotonergic cell bodies and axon terminals. These effects complement each other and they both contribute to the same functional outcome: the enhancement of NREM sleep.

So in short, IL-1 stimulates 5-HT which helps to increase NREM and suppress REM. If our IL-1 is already high (due to infections), 5-HT is already stimulated, and taking more 5-HT will only make matters worse, by increasing NREM and suppressing REM sleep even further.

 

[Martial]

@Martial I just remembered you said to take niacin when feeling bad. . I thought I read that niacin stops the methylation process.

Did I read it wrong? Where am I confused?

It was only needed if I over stimulated the methylation pathways. Just to make the de tox less intense and let the system cool off a bit. If you over do the niacin it stops methylation, I used a small dose to reduce the intensity.

 

[minkeygirl]

@Martial yeah I had read niacin stopped methylation. So far I seem to be ok. I'm upping to 1000 mcg Friday and will go up 200 more the next week.

I have a doc appt the 11 th. I'm feeling a bit of the anger but not like it was. That part sucks.

 

[chipmunk1]

SSRI had no positive effect at all just made me sleep and sleep more, stopped thinking about anything, watched TV all day.

Feel sorry for the people who have to be on these drugs. Can't image that life is great on them yet often people claim they do great things for anxiety, depression, energy level etc.. I am a bit skeptical.

 

[minkeygirl]

I watch TV all day long and I'm not on SSRI's. Sometimes its just this DD.

 

[bertiedog]

If I remember correctly Dr Cheney said SSRIs were very bad for people with ME/CFS because "they fried the brain" whereas he always seemed to recommend Klonopein as being helpful.

Pam

 

[amaru7]

ME/CFS patients already do have a "fried brain", I'm not into SSRIs because they're useless incase of real serotonin deficiency and depression and they're really unhealthy, but I wouldnt say they fry your brain^^

 

[rosie26]

Can so relate to the "fried brain". Neurologically fried ?

 

[amaru7]

Can so relate to the "fried brain". Neurologically fried ?

yes, neurological. Many of us CFS patients get defensive when called depressive, including myself because we think it's a purely psychological issue and whe have a physical problem.

But now I know for sure that most if not all psychological issues have underlying physical abnormalities so a depressed patient can have CFS and the other way around too. Depression is infact a serotonin deficiency, which then leads to behavioural abnormalities, but at the core its a physical thing.

I too have serotonin deficiency and since I was at a CFS clinic, the professor and leader of the clinic told me, that most CFS patients have a neurotransmitter abnormality. You can also read my signature link on that subject. I think that's a major aspect for us to look into

 

[Leopardtail]

yes, neurological. Many of us CFS patients get defensive when called depressive, including myself because we think it's a purely psychological issue and whe have a physical problem.

But now I know for sure that most if not all psychological issues have underlying physical abnormalities so a depressed patient can have CFS and the other way around too. Depression is infact a serotonin deficiency, which then leads to behavioural abnormalities, but at the core its a physical thing.

I too have serotonin deficiency and since I was at a CFS clinic, the professor and leader of the clinic told me, that most CFS patients have a neurotransmitter abnormality. You can also read my signature link on that subject. I think that's a major aspect for us to look into

I on the other hand suffer no depression whatsoever unless I am on the receiving end of problems created by the ignorance of others.

 

[amaru7]

• Difficulty concentrating, remembering details, and making decisions
• Fatigue and decreased energy
• Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, and/or helplessness
• Feelings of hopelessness and/or pessimism
• Insomnia, early-morning wakefulness, or excessive sleeping
• Irritability, restlessness
• Loss of interest in activities or hobbies once pleasurable, including sex
• Overeating or appetite loss
• Persistent aches or pains, headaches, cramps, or digestive problems that do not ease even with treatment
• Persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" feelings
• Thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts

These are some of the official symptoms of depression and most of the CFS patients do have these

 

[rosie26]

Hi @amaru7 I wasn't meaning psychologically "fried" I meant physiologically. I get heat and nerve like inflammation (feeling of inflammation) in my head and it feels like I am being "fried" in my head. Sorry, if I wasn't clear.

I do get some depression when my physical symptoms are severe.

 

[amaru7]

Hey @rosie26 ya I understood you.

To the subject, I seem to have a view that the majority of general ppl don't share.
It is that most of the psychological conditions have a physiological underlying basis. If you just think about what neurotransmitters like Serotonin do, then it'd be obvious.

And if you ever tried psychedelics, you get to experience first hand, how much of our perception and state of mind are actually influenced by chemical reactions.