Why not Ketamine?

[justy]

even weeks-long binges on some garbage 'Special K' made in a basement in Guandong seems to do remarkably little permanent harm.

Sorry I have to take issue with you here - this is irresponsible nonsense. In the UK Ketamine abuse is widespread as it is so easy to get hold of and cheap. In the area I live in their are many many sad casualties of Ketamine abuse - especially amongst the very young and lots of girls affected.

Many youngsters are having to have their bladders removed and bags permanently attached - I have met a few such cases - all under 25. A girl my son went to school with (he's 22) died last month - she was only taking Ketamine.

Once the effects of the drug have worn off, users might experience severe abdominal pain. It can also cause thickening of the bladder and urinary tract, and this can force some long-term addicts to have their bladders removed as the walls are too thick and prevent urine from passing through.
Other issues include kidney problems, which are caused by the drug’s interaction with the kidneys as it is reduced into its metabolites.

http://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-ketamine-use/

• 
  

  [*]Cause confusion, agitation, panic attacks, and impairment in short and long term memory. Frequent use is sometimes associated with the development of depression.
  [*]Cause very serious bladder problems in regular users. They can have problems peeing and when they do it can be very painful. Sometimes the damage is so bad that the bladder has to be removed by surgery. The urinary tract, from the kidneys down to the bladder, can also be badly affected.

http://www.talktofrank.com/drug/ketamine

What are the health risks of ketamine?
Ketamine can increase your heart rate and blood pressure. It can make you confused, agitated, delirious and disconnected from reality. It can make you feel sick, and it can cause damage to your short and long term memory. Other risks include:

• Because of the body’s loss of feelings, paralysis of the muscles and the mind’s loss of touch with reality, you can be left vulnerable to hurting yourself or being hurt by others.
• Because you don't feel pain properly when you've recently taken ketamine, you can injure yourself badly and not know you've done it.
• Ketamine can cause very serious bladder problems, with the urgent and frequen need to pee. This can be very painful and often pee can be blood-stained and can contain tissue from the wall of the bladder. Although stopping using ketamine can help, sometimes the damage can be so serious that the bladder needs to be removed by surgery. The urinary tract, from the kidneys down to the bladder, can also be badly affected and incontinence (uncontrolled peeing) may also develop

http://www.talktofrank.com/drug/ketamine

To be clear I am talking about abuse of Ketamine, not when it is used as a prescribed drug, however I have seen enough of the fall out from abuse that I would not go near it.

• .

• Some users have been known to take higher doses as a way to control the bladder pain caused by ketamine, which in turn increases the risk of bladder damage and pain.
• Abdominal pain or ‘K cramps’ have been reported by many long-term users.
• Evidence of liver damage due to regular, heavy ketamine use is emerging. The liver has a range of important functions, such as cleaning your blood and removing toxic substances.

 

[peggy-sue]

In the mid-'90s, ketamine was being seriously considered for use as a model for schizoprenia, based on the idea that the hallucinatory effects do not occur in pre-adolesence, and that schizophrenia does not manifest until after puberty.

(Although I have recently noticed in the literature references to childhood schizophrenia, I really don't know if it has been found, or if it's more psychologisation by the psych lot in the DSM, in order to pep up their patient base.)

Drugs are biologically active substances. When a drug is found, it can take a very long time to find out exactly what it can do - and the results can often be very diverse and surprising and completely unrelated to the original "intent".

 

[Mudhole]

Justy-

I am aware of the ongoing sensationalist propaganda campaign against Ketamine in the UK popular press. We have propaganda campaigns here too. To wit:

THOSE EVIL RUSSIANS
THOSE EVIL TERRORISTS
OUR BRAVE TROOPS
OUR UNIFORMED HEROES

24/7 365.

Reality is somewhat different, as is the reality of Ketamine. While 15,000 people in the US die of prescription painkillers every year, the number of deaths from Ketamine is so low it is not even recorded. Ketamine related deaths are a MINISCULE FRACTION of the number of people killed by golf clubs and garage door openers.

 

[acrosstheveil]

ime, low dose ketamine helps a ton for all sorts of chronic pain, illnesses, and sleep problems. unfortunately i did not do this legally and it can become addictive very quickly.

 

[Fogbuster]

Read studies, then make a judgment. Simples. I'm in agreement with your views @Mudhole. In a controlled environment this drug could help ALOT of people.

 

[justy]

Justy-

I am aware of the ongoing sensationalist propaganda campaign against Ketamine in the UK popular press. We have propaganda campaigns here too. To wit:

THOSE EVIL RUSSIANS
THOSE EVIL TERRORISTS
OUR BRAVE TROOPS
OUR UNIFORMED HEROES

24/7 365.

Reality is somewhat different, as is the reality of Ketamine. While 15,000 people in the US die of prescription painkillers every year, the number of deaths from Ketamine is so low it is not even recorded. Ketamine related deaths are a MINISCULE FRACTION of the number of people killed by golf clubs and garage door openers.

I am not interested in the popular press in the least bit, nor do I need to be spoken to as if I were an idiot. I was speaking, if you read my post from personal experiences - Ketamine is ruining the lives of many young people in the rural community I live in. Girls under 25 are having their bladder removed from ketamine abuse.

 

[Undisclosed]

Justy-

I am aware of the ongoing sensationalist propaganda campaign against Ketamine in the UK popular press. We have propaganda campaigns here too. To wit:

THOSE EVIL RUSSIANS
THOSE EVIL TERRORISTS
OUR BRAVE TROOPS
OUR UNIFORMED HEROES

24/7 365.

Reality is somewhat different, as is the reality of Ketamine. While 15,000 people in the US die of prescription painkillers every year, the number of deaths from Ketamine is so low it is not even recorded. Ketamine related deaths are a MINISCULE FRACTION of the number of people killed by golf clubs and garage door openers.

I wonder what the 'reality of ketamine' actually is. It is an anesthetic and in those terms would have a high safety profile because during surgery somebody is monitoring you for side-effects -- heart rate, BP, respirations. I would also assume that those who have been prescribed ketamine are using it under controlled circumstances which would decrease any deaths from adverse effects. It also hasn't been widely prescribed except for use in surgery -- has it?

I think @justy is making a very good point because this drug is being abused by people and causing death.

For me, I would like to see much more research and secondly would it be of any use to people with ME/CFS or would it cause them more problems as ketamine is known to cause alterations in BP, fainting, arrhythmia's which would cause massive problems for all of us.

 

[voner]

The use of ketamine is highly controversial because of the abuse/addiction issues that has been discussed. It is used by some pain doctors. If you explore forms of with patients with complex regional pain syndrome you will see the Subject is discussed quite a bit. Here is a pain Dr. site who hasinformation about it. He also uses low dose Naltrexone. There are a few doctors out there that will use ketamine for pain. But just a few because of the high abuse potential etc.

http://painsandiego.com/2012/01/24/depression-ptsd-ketamine-rapid-treatment/
http://painsandiego.com/2014/04/16/...ession-the-first-randomized-controlled-trial/

 

[acrosstheveil]

i think it might be okay if you had a controlled form of dosing where you take the same dose every time. it still should be a last resort option imo.

 

[minkeygirl]

Just saw this!

http://www.latimes.com/science/scie...ressant-not-ketamine-20140501,0,2180858.story

 

[peggy-sue]

Fascinating

- but they're still on about serotonin.
It's HORMONES that mediate mood. Not neurotransmitters.

 

[Mudhole]

Justy-

Sorry if I offended you. I was not trying to defend recreational use of ketamine or any other drug. My own recreational drug use is confined to an occasional glass of red wine. I have never tried Ketamine, nor would I do so outside a clinical setting. My whole point is, Ketamine is a potentially promising treatment for us that is not being explored because of the bad name it has acquired due to widespread recreational abuse.

Unfortunately, CFS/ME falls into a medical Twilight Zone between infectious disease, neurology and psychiatry.
Here in this nexus to nowhere there are no roads, no maps, no stars and not much hope. There was a man, Dr. Jay Goldstein who helped a lot of people until ill health forced him to retire a dozen years ago. Dr. Goldstein stated that Ketamine was the best treatment for CFS/ME. The BEST treatment, and yet no one is offering it? Instead, it's pick your hyper-expensive poison- Ampligen, Valcyte, Rituxan, Enbrel, etc. These treatment paths are extremely profitable for some, but little help for all but a few.

What if, Justy, WHAT IF ketamine works for us like it works for MDD and PTSD, what if it is the best treatment for us, or at least, some of us? Why not TRY IT ? Yet, no one is.

 

[Undisclosed]

@Mudhole

It seems to me that you are conflating MDD and PTSD with ME/CFS -- Why?

 

[searcher]

I am with Mudhole on this even though I know it's controversial-- ketamine is scary when abused recreationally but there is evidence that it has promising benefits when used in clinical settings. Jay Goldstein found that it helped his ME/CFS patients. Although ME/CFS is very different than MDD and PTSD we also have issues with GABA and glutamate which ketamine seems to affect. It's possible ketamine won't help or could even be detrimental but we won't know until clinicians and researchers test it.

 

[Mudhole]

@Mudhole

It seems to me that you are conflating MDD and PTSD with ME/CFS -- Why?

Kina-

I wouldn't go as far as conflating, but there are definite parallels. I get depressed when I look out the window and see the three kayaks I will probably never paddle again. Thinking about the dive trip to Indonesia I had to cancel when I was stuck down on Dec. 29th of last year depresses me. Knowing I'll probably never work again depresses the hell out of me. SSRIs don't work for me. I f Ketamine can help me with my depression, I would be very grateful.

What PTSD and CFS/ME have in common IMHO, is damaged brain synapses from stress overload. Ketamine repairs these synapses. No, I do not have any medical training, nor am I a scientist of any sort. I don't know if Ketamine would work for us, or the degree of efficacy. What I am confident of - that there are no significant medical or ethical issues here. It's been tried before and it worked. Pourquoi pas?

 

[xrayspex]

@Mudhole, curious why you include valcyte as poison med----i dont nec. disagree, am curious because get bad pain every time i take even just half a tablet for a day......

all the rest, too tired to figure out and comment but i keep an open mind but i also have had bad luck with chemicals myself due to mcs

 

[Undisclosed]

Kina-

I wouldn't go as far as conflating, but there are definite parallels. I get depressed when I look out the window and see the three kayaks I will probably never paddle again. Thinking about the dive trip to Indonesia I had to cancel when I was stuck down on Dec. 29th of last year depresses me. Knowing I'll probably never work again depresses the hell out of me. SSRIs don't work for me. I f Ketamine can help me with my depression, I would be very grateful.

Ketamine will not stop you from grieving over your losses. From what I have just read, it might just work as a temporary effect so would be helpful in patients that are suicidal.

From -- http://neurocritic.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/ketamine-for-depression-yay-or-neigh.html

Although the immediate onset of symptom amelioration gives ketamine a substantial advantage over traditional antidepressants (which take 4-6 weeks to work), there are definite limitations (Tsai, 2007). Drawbacks include the possibility of ketamine-induced psychosis (Javitt, 2010), limited duration of effectiveness (aan het Rot et al., 2010), potential long-term deleterious effects such as white matter abnormalities (Liao et al., 2010), and an inability to truly blind the ketamine condition due to obvious dissociative effects in many participants.

At present, what are the most promising uses for ketamine as a fast-acting antidepressant? Given the disadvantages discussed above, short-term use for immediate relief of life-threatening or end-of-life depressive symptoms seem to be the best indications.

Other interesting articles
http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/ketamine-magic-antidepressant-or.html

http://cellularscale.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/ketamine-for-depression-via-neurogenesis.html

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2010/sep/01/psychedelic-drugs-mental-illness

What PTSD and CFS/ME have in common IMHO, is damaged brain synapses from stress overload. Ketamine repairs these synapses. No, I do not have any medical training, nor am I a scientist of any sort. I don't know if Ketamine would work for us, or the degree of efficacy. What I am confident of - that there are no significant medical or ethical issues here. It's been tried before and it worked. Pourquoi pas?

What about those people with ME who led relatively stress-free happy lives? The synapse studies come from rats and it's beyond me how you give a rat PTSD and then associate improved synaptic function in rats with human psychiatric conditions. What are the ramifications of messing with the synapses?

One study showed that ketamine causes cancer -- that's a pretty serious medical issue to consider. There are ethical issues here too re: a doctor prescribing a drug for depression that hasn't been properly studied and that may cause further medical issues. This is a problem with most pharmaceuticals out there today. Why does Ketamine get a pass on your list of dangerous poisons?

 

[Mudhole]

Kina- my argument, in brief:

Ketamine has been around for decades. It's FDA approved, and is one of the most thoroughly studied drugs on the market. It is also been tested informally, tens of millions of times by young boneheads everywhere. This may be 'anecdotal' evidence to the Sheldon Coopers of this world, but the numbers are overwhelming and the results are undeniable- Ketamine is one of the least toxic drugs on the planet.

As for how the human brain works- nobody knows. Neurophamacology is still in the 'cut and try' stage. Meanwhile CFS/ME victims watch,and wait- and grow older and sicker, and die. Yet there is a potential treatment, one that worked before, that takes effect immediately, is non toxic, that everyone can afford, is FHA approved- why not TRY it at least?

If a doctor would agree to prescribe Ketamine to me, and infuse me Monday morning, the entire CFS/ME world would know, starting Tuesday morning, how I was doing, if I thought Ketamine was helping me, any negative effects.

Why not try?

 

[peggy-sue]

I have a personal blanket ban on infusions - or, indeed on anything involving needles.
I would not be able to cope with diabetes. I'd have to do away with myself.

 

[Mudhole]

I have a personal blanket ban on infusions - or, indeed on anything involving needles.
I would not be able to cope with diabetes. I'd have to do away with myself.

Come on, Kid- It's easy! Just close your eyes, lie back and think of England.