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Anyone use NTFactor?

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
I have just started on NT Factor Lipids Powder (the pure powder without all the stuff in). I've only been taking it a week so it's way too early to tell. Here is a recent thread where it is discussed at length.
 

JT1024

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
Massachusetts
I have used it in the past and I believe it had benefit. Continuing to obtain and take the multitude of supplements has become overwhelming to me.

I have been taking LifePak Nano's to reduce the sheer number of supplements I take. They are not cheap and my compliance isn't great either.
 

roxie60

Senior Member
Messages
1,791
Location
Central Illinois, USA
I ordered propax gold. Very expensive. For this amount of money expecting miracle. Also suppose to start antibiotics for mycoplasma and anaplama infections. I have had a deteriorating couple of weeks, not well enough to even drive to grocery store, planned yo go at least 4 times this week.
 

roxie60

Senior Member
Messages
1,791
Location
Central Illinois, USA
I know what you mean JT. So many meds, so many supplement s, on my counter tops, in my cupboards, in boxes. Someone who pre mystery illness occasionally took advil or aleve for headaches and occasional otc for allergies. Did not even take vitamins. I am at a loss to know what to do to restore my health. I have put trust in many doctors over ten years and the result is loss on so many levels (health, friends, career, financial, self confidence, hope for my future). At all time low and try to remain hopeful and faithful like Job but I feel I am failing. Want so bad to be better, to live life.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
I had some side effects from NT factor: I starting a regimen of 3 scoops (= 3 x 1.4 grams) daily of the NT Factor EnergyLipids Powder.

On the second day of this regimen, although it caused my sleep to be a little restless, on waking up I noticed some general improvements from the NT Factor: I felt more calm, more content, and I felt like I was moving away from the ME/CFS of mind, and towards the normal state of mind I used to have before I developed ME/CFS. I felt more sociable and talkative than usual, for one thing, and my sound sensitivity was much reduced. So I was quite optimistic that NT Factor was already working.

However, on waking up on the third day of taking this NT factor regimen, I felt much worse than normal: I felt an increased in mental numbness, and I felt pretty "spaced out" and unable to focus well mentally. Furthermore, my sound sensitivity and general sensitivity to stimuli were increased, and I found sounds and visual stimuli sort of strangely jolted my mind in a mildly perturbing manner, in a way that reminded me a bit of the anxiety psychosis states I used to get several years ago. I have not experienced this anxiety psychosis for a few years now, but anything that evokes these horrible anxiety psychosis states I treat with great caution. I also felt much less sociable. I generally was in an unpleasant and weird state on the third day.

I then stopped taking NT Factor for a week, and then restarted at a lower dose of 1 scoop per day. I also took lots of antioxidants at the same time, because I theorized that this bad reaction I experienced from NT Factor might be due to the lipids in NT Factor being damaged by the high state of oxidative stress thought to exist in ME/CFS. Dr Cheney thinks that ME/CFS involves a state of chronic oxygen toxicity. See my post here for more details.

This oxidative stress in the body and brain may be oxidizing these phosphoglycolipids in NT Factor before they can get to work. I understand that some oxidized lipids can be toxic and neurotoxic.

At this lower dose, and with the antioxidants, the bad side effects of NT Factor have mostly disappeared, although I still have mild increases in sound sensitivity and general sensitivity to stimuli. I have only been on this lower dose regimen for a few days now, so I cannot comment yet on its long term benefits.
 

Little Bluestem

All Good Things Must Come to an End
Messages
4,930
My dr. recommended NT Factor, but I am having difficulty finding any.

@Cheesus , Who makes the NT Factor Lipids Powder that you take?

@Hip, Keep us posted on you continuing experience with the NT Factor. (I'm assuming you are taking the same thing that Cheesus it.)
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
@Little Bluestem Nutricology which I ordered from iHerb, though I think you can get it cheaper on Amazon if you are in the US. For us Brits it is extremely expensive to get domestically and even with a large import duty it still works out cheaper from iHerb.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
@Hip I think those side effects are probably due to the high levels of choline in the phospholipids. High choline intake seems to cause the same problems for me.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
@Hip I think those side effects are probably due to the high levels of choline in the phospholipids. High choline intake seems to cause the same problems for me.

Thanks for the suggestion, though in my case I don't seem to have any trouble with choline, and in fact I usually take 1000 mg of choline bitartrate daily (as I find it has mild anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects). I also often take phosphatidylcholine from 1200 mg of lecithin.

It's not the phosphatidylserine either, because I take 400 mg of that daily too.

The ingredients of NT Factor are:
Phosphatidic acid (PA)
Phosphatidyl-choline (PC)
Phosphatidyl-ethanolamine (PE)
Phosphatidyl-glycerol (PG)
Phosphatidyl-inositol (PI)
Phosphatidyl-serine (PS)
Digalactosyldiacylglyceride (DGDG)
Monoglactosyldiacylglyceride (MGDG)
Boron (sodium borate)

So one or more of these ingredients (excluding the PC and PS) must be causing the side effects I experienced.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Thanks for the suggestion, though in my case I don't seem to have any trouble with choline, and in fact I usually take 1000 mg of choline bitartrate daily (as I find it has mild anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects). I also often take phosphatidylcholine from 1200 mg of lecithin.

It's not the phosphatidylserine either, because I take 400 mg of that daily too.

The ingredients of NT Factor are:
Phosphatidic acid (PA)
Phosphatidyl-choline (PC)
Phosphatidyl-ethanolamine (PE)
Phosphatidyl-glycerol (PG)
Phosphatidyl-inositol (PI)
Phosphatidyl-serine (PS)
Digalactosyldiacylglyceride (DGDG)
Monoglactosyldiacylglyceride (MGDG)
Boron (sodium borate)

So one or more of these ingredients (excluding the PC and PS) must be causing the side effects I experienced.
But I believe all of those are present in regular lecithin as well.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
But I believe all of those are present in regular lecithin as well.

Presumably not to the same quantity, otherwise people could simply buy lecithin in place of the rather more expensive NT Factor.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Yes, I saw those. I guess you are more easily impressed than me.

There are no controls in those studies, and measures of fatigue are subjective. There is no comparison with regular lecithin. And the NT factor product they used contains much more than just lipids, which seriously confounds the studies.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
They are just fairly basic studies on the efficacy of protocols using NT Factor for ME/CFS, hinting that NT Factor may be beneficial for ME/CFS. A few glowing reports about NT Factor on this forum also suggest it may be beneficial.

That's good enough for me to try out a supplement.

In my tests, I found there is a difference between NT Factor and lecithin capsules, and so these are not equivalent. I have taken lecithin capsules (and lecithin granules) on numerous occasions, and at high doses, and never had the effects from them that I got from NT Factor.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
I then stopped taking NT Factor for a week, and then restarted at a lower dose of 1 scoop per day. I also took lots of antioxidants at the same time, because I theorized that this bad reaction I experienced from NT Factor might be due to the lipids in NT Factor being damaged by the high state of oxidative stress thought to exist in ME/CFS. Dr Cheney thinks that ME/CFS involves a state of chronic oxygen toxicity. See my post here for more details.

This oxidative stress in the body and brain may be oxidizing these phosphoglycolipids in NT Factor before they can get to work. I understand that some oxidized lipids can be toxic and neurotoxic.

I am wondering about this too. I have been taking the NT Factor for a week now and I am experiencing a definite increase in brain fog. It could of course be a coincidence.

By the way, here's an old post from Rich on the matter:

Hi, kdp.

Yes, cell membranes are also made of phospholipids. There are several types of phospholipids. Cardiolipin is one of them, and it is found almost exclusively in the mitochondrial membranes, and mainly in the innner mitochondrial membrane. Its role or roles are the subject of ongoing research, and at least one of them seems to be involved with the process of apoptosis, i.e. the organized type of cell death.

Most of the oxidizing free radicals in the cell are produced in the mitochondria, so when there is oxidative stress (i.e. an excess of oxidizing free radicals, in my hypothesis due to glutathione depletion), the mitochondrial membranes sustain the most damage.

Yes, there are toxins in the mitochondria in CFS, as has been shown by the testing done by Dr. John McLaren Howard of Acumen Lab in the UK. Some of them may be able to diffuse through the mitochondrial membranes in response to a concentration gradient. Others may be actively imported by transporter proteins into the mitochondria. In my hypothesis, they remain there because glutathione is depleted, so that the normal detox processes that would take them out are not operating properly.

I haven't heard of any research results suggesting an interaction between XMRV and the mitochondria. As I understand it, XMRV produces its complementary DNA from its RNA, and this DNA then becomes part of human nuclear DNA molecules.

I'm aware of research conducted by Garth Nicolson and Rita Elliethorpe showing that NT Factor repairs mitochondrial membranes, causing the electrical potential across the membrane to move toward normal. As far as I know, other treatments that supply phopholipids or unsaturated fatty acids (omega-3 and omega-6) would be beneficial for these membranes, also. NT Factor is a nested liposomal treatment, and nested liposomes are more likely to be able to deliver phospholipids to the mitochondria, because they are able to penetrate other membranes in order to get to the mitochondria.

One concern I have about supplying additional phospholipids or unsaturated fatty acids in CFS is that the oxidative stress may damage them. In lipid oxidation, there is a chain reaction process that can produce lipid peroxides in large quantities if oxidative stress is present. I think it is wise to counter the oxidative stress either simultaneously while supplying the lipids, or prior to doing so. In the Simplified Treatment Approach that I've suggested, phospholipids are supplied at the same time that supplements are given to lift the partial methylation cycle block, which allows glutathione to come up, thus countering the oxidative stress. I believe that in Dr. Kane's protocol, glutathione is given intravenously as part of the protocol, while phosphatidylcholine is also given in separate IVs.

Dr. Cheney's views about which supplements are beneficial and which are not in CFS are based on his short-time measurements (of the order of a minute or a few minutes) of changes in the IVRT parameter in echocardiography, in response to applying a small amount of each supplement transdermally. In my view, this approach is not an accurate way to judge the benefit of supplements, because many biochemical changes take longer than a few minutes. I think this approach interrogates only the first step or steps in the metabolism of a substance applied in this way, and the overall effect of a substance will depend on its more complete metabolism and the effects of that on the cells. I have expressed this view to Dr. Cheney several times, but I don't think he has changed his mind about this. I'm not aware of anyone else who is using this approach to judge the merits of supplements. Dr. Cheney has not submitted this method to any formal peer review, as far as I know.

Best regards,

Rich

Recently, @Vegas has talked about phospholipid supplementation on the resistant starch thread. I'm tagging him in case he'd like to comment.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,824
That is interesting, @Sidereal.

If glutathione is needed to protect these NT Factor phosphoglycolipids from peroxidation, perhaps glutathione supplementation as well as supplements like undenatured whey protein and N-acetyl-cysteine which raise intracellular glutathione would be a good thing to take alongside NT Factor.

I am currently taking Q10 200 mg, astaxanthin 12 mg, vitamin E 400 mg, grape seed extract 500 mg and N-acetyl-carnitine 500 mg as my antioxidants alongside NT Factor, but perhaps intracellular glutathione boosting is more important when it comes to quenching the reactive oxygen species created by mitochondria.

I was trying to find a good article on the best set of antioxidant supplements to take to protect against reactive oxygen species generated by mitochondria, but could not find one.