MTHFR - FOLATE USAGE AND BLOCKING

[zzz0r]

I wanted to create this thread long ago but I did not have the time. I am trying to find out what is going on with the folate blocking that freddd and others have metioned many times.
The questions are:
a)Have you noticed by any means, blockage by folic or folinic acid to your folate synthesis levels OR have you experienced worsening of folate deffeciency symptoms when you consume green vegetables or foods that contain high values of folic acid or maybe foods that are artificially enriched by folic acid like cereals and bread?
b) Have you used folate supplements and if so what ammount of folate keeps you with no insuffeciency symptoms?

1.I need people knowing that they are homozygous or heterozygous on MTFHR to participate on this thread
2. Please keep the discussion relevant to the topic
3.I am just going to do some tags on people that I found out that they have MTHFR mutations from their signatures in order to draw attention.
@ahmo , @brenda , @Sea , @Star-Anise , @stridor , @NilaJones , @S.A. , @Critterina , @Journeyman , @nandixon , @Leon

 

[Sea]

Sorry @zzz0r I'm happy to give input but I don't think I can give anything useful to your thread.

I am heterozygous for MTHFR A1298C only so my basis for using folate and avoiding folic acid comes only from a desire to see if methylation support is useful for me rather than targeting a known genetic defect.

a) I am gluten free and mostly avoid processed food so my intake of folic acid is virtually nil. I have not noticed any effect from vegetables

b) I am still on a journey with methylfolate and methylB12. In six months of supplementing my MCV has dropped from 103 to 95 and I am able to spend less time in bed and more time doing without crashing even though I don't feel any better. Currently I am taking 2.4mg methylfolate once a day. If I forget a dose I get a bad headache and a couple of days later an acne like outbreak on my scalp.

When I first started supplementing methylfolate I got a headache every time I tried to increase the dose. After backing off several times I decided to trial increasing the dose when I got a headache instead. To my surprise it worked, within half an hour of an extra dose the headache went away.

I'm not sure yet though that I can say what dose is enough to not give me any deficiency symptoms. I still plan to increase a bit more and see if it gives me any further gain and if not return to a lower dose. I haven't noticed any benefit from 2.4mg so far that I didn't have from 1.6mg except that I did forget a dose one day and didn't get a headache until the next day rather than after a couple of hours.

 

[helen1]

Hi zz0r,

a. Haven't noticed any sensitivity to veggie folates or folinic. I don't eat anything with folic acid in it.

b. Yes, I take mfolate. To stay out of insufficiency, I need to take between 700 mcg - 1600 mcg. That usually works but not always so may need to take more. Just haven't had the nerve yet.

 

[Critterina]

@zzz0r ,

How can I answer "Have you noticed by any means, blockage by folic or folinic acid to your folate synthesis levels"? That's not something I can measure. Freddd may have done enough research on himself to have an answer he believes, but not me. Ask me a question like "Do lots of leafy greens cause any of the symptoms Freddd lists as being associated with folate deficiency?" That I can answer, and I can tell you which symptoms. But I can't see blockage by folic or folinic acid.

I can tell you this: I feel that a meal is not a meal without something green in it. I feel better with more vegetables, or at least I did until I became histamine intolerant. Living without tomatoes, peppers, spinach, and pumpkin I tend not to eat as many vegetables. But I feel better when I do.

Folic acid has never bothered me.

When I first started taking folinic acid, I got really sleepy, even fell asleep on an outdoor tram at the Air and Space Museum. I added Heartfixer's "Energy will falter" support and got over that. Now folinic acid doesn't bother me at all I take it at lunch with Mg and tryptophan, and sometimes two benedryl if I don't have much control over the selection of foods. Not sleepy.

I did have angular chelitis and acne-like outbreak on my face and scalp. It occurred when I introduced some other things into my regimen (incl. NAC), even though the folate and MB12 were stable. Although I later increased folate for a while and MB12 permanently, and discontinued the added supplements, the scalp involvement subsided, but breakouts around my nose and mouth (and later eyes) continued despite OTC treatments and the steroid cream my doc Rxed. Fast forward 7-8 months and my dermatologist is irate. She diagnoses perioral dermatitis, and now I have to go through a huge flare up before the oral and topical antibiotics and the non-steroidal cream take effect. Is part of this that I have undetectable cortisol? Maybe. But maybe not. now I'm stuck with 2 months of abx and topical gel/cream, but at least no more pizza face.

I use 1 mg mthf, 0.8 mg folinic, 5-15 mg mb12, but I'm making up for fast-dissolving MB12 by taking more, so I don't know how much of the product is wasted.

 

[Freddd]

I wanted to create this thread long ago but I did not have the time. I am trying to find out what is going on with the folate blocking that freddd and others have metioned many times.
The questions are:
a)Have you noticed by any means, blockage by folic or folinic acid to your folate synthesis levels OR have you experienced worsening of folate deffeciency symptoms when you consume green vegetables or foods that contain high values of folic acid or maybe foods that are artificially enriched by folic acid like cereals and bread?
b) Have you used folate supplements and if so what ammount of folate keeps you with no insuffeciency symptoms?

1.I need people knowing that they are homozygous or heterozygous on MTFHR to participate on this thread
2. Please keep the discussion relevant to the topic
3.I am just going to do some tags on people that I found out that they have MTHFR mutations from their signatures in order to draw attention.
@ahmo , @brenda , @Sea , @Star-Anise , @stridor , @NilaJones , @S.A. , @Critterina , @Journeyman , @nandixon , @Leon

Hi zz0r,

I adopted the "blocking" idea from folic acid research dating back to the 60s. I don't know if that is the actual cause. All I can tell you for sure is that inflammation and histamine responses increase tremendously when I eat too much folate containing vegetable matter, folic acid and folinic acid. I don't deprive myself of any vegetables, just eat somewhat fewer servings or smaller servings. Tonight and the pastr few days I have been enjoyiong fresh asparagus. NAC and other glutathione promoting items cause the most severe results with large visible amounts of b12 being flushed out in my urine within hours, with sudden onset of obvious methyltrap (a completely different mechanism than folic acid or folinic acid or veggies) inflammation starting within hours, acne, IBS, angular cheilitis starting in a day or two and allergic responses, asthma, widespread inflammatory pain worsening day by day and within a couple of weeks, MCS is getting started and not responsive to anything except discontinuing NAC/glutathione promoters, folic acid (takes days to have an effect, in theory time for unconverted folic acid to build up to the "blockage" point, the hypothesis of many researchers and clears in about 24 hours allowing more normal effectiveness of Metafolin) and folinic acid (which builds up quicker, blocks in 24 hours and takes a couple of days to clear). The difference between folic and folinic acid could be entirely because of serum clearance half life difference. To break the methyltrap took some sizeable doses of AdoCbl and MeCbl, causing 4 distinct startup responses all over again, the only time besides initial startup for each at both levels (4 in all). It may not be tied to any polymorphisms at all because 50% can convert to a biological maximum of 800-1000mcg daily, 30% less than that but some conversion and 20% no conversion at all. Those probably represent some polymorphisms however, 50% can still have a buildup if they take more than minimum doses. So which 50% is "normal"? It looks like all can be affected on the folic acid. I have no idea what percentage are represented in the folinic acid equivalent groups or veggie folate groups.

You may be asking a question to which you will get answers of all kinds. It may not be a question with a nice neat single answer. I would be inclined to bet on that option as these differences have been known since the 60s, long before the polymorphisms were even discoverable. I would be interested in seeing the results.

 

[zzz0r]

@zzz0r ,

How can I answer "Have you noticed by any means, blockage by folic or folinic acid to your folate synthesis levels"? That's not something I can measure. Freddd may have done enough research on himself to have an answer he believes, but not me. Ask me a question like "Do lots of leafy greens cause any of the symptoms Freddd lists as being associated with folate deficiency?" That I can answer, and I can tell you which symptoms. But I can't see blockage by folic or folinic acid.

I can tell you this: I feel that a meal is not a meal without something green in it. I feel better with more vegetables, or at least I did until I became histamine intolerant. Living without tomatoes, peppers, spinach, and pumpkin I tend not to eat as many vegetables. But I feel better when I do.

Folic acid has never bothered me.

When I first started taking folinic acid, I got really sleepy, even fell asleep on an outdoor tram at the Air and Space Museum. I added Heartfixer's "Energy will falter" support and got over that. Now folinic acid doesn't bother me at all I take it at lunch with Mg and tryptophan, and sometimes two benedryl if I don't have much control over the selection of foods. Not sleepy.

I did have angular chelitis and acne-like outbreak on my face and scalp. It occurred when I introduced some other things into my regimen (incl. NAC), even though the folate and MB12 were stable. Although I later increased folate for a while and MB12 permanently, and discontinued the added supplements, the scalp involvement subsided, but breakouts around my nose and mouth (and later eyes) continued despite OTC treatments and the steroid cream my doc Rxed. Fast forward 7-8 months and my dermatologist is irate. She diagnoses perioral dermatitis, and now I have to go through a huge flare up before the oral and topical antibiotics and the non-steroidal cream take effect. Is part of this that I have undetectable cortisol? Maybe. But maybe not. now I'm stuck with 2 months of abx and topical gel/cream, but at least no more pizza face.

I use 1 mg mthf, 0.8 mg folinic, 5-15 mg mb12, but I'm making up for fast-dissolving MB12 by taking more, so I don't know how much of the product is wasted.

I could put the question otherwise but i think everyone understands what I really mean:
Does folic or folinic acid intake induces a folate insuffeciency ? (Folate insuffeciency symptoms could be those mentioned in Freddd's list).
Someone could also comment on the response that he has on methylfolate, if it stops the insuffeciency or not.
It is already clear to me that many people instead of reducing methylfolate dosage need to increase it in order to stop the symptoms. This is common to many people and Freddd has described this phenomenon really good. So there is no need to discuss that in more details. I know it happens at least for me!

 

[ahmo]

Does folic or folinic acid intake induces a folate insuffeciency ? (Folate insuffeciency symptoms could be those mentioned in Freddd's list).

I can't answer that question. For a couple years I tried folinic acid types, other folate forms, with no positive results. Since I've started Freddd's Protocol, I've been getting better. My improvements started after going gluten/dairy-free. I eat nothing w/ folic acid. My veggie intake is limited: 1 sm/med zucchini, peeled, + approx 1 cup lettuce/carrot juice daily.

I'm now at 9.4mg Mfolate/day, 9mg MB12, 7.5 mg AdB12. I've gotten to this folate dose by increasing 100-200 mcg every day or two. I increased each time acne on face or pimples around base of skull emerged. Now, 4 days have passed since my last increase. This is the longest I've gone w/o recurring symptoms since I started this method of increasing, so maybe I've reached some equilibrium. Before understanding the B12/folate relationship, I let symptoms go on, thinking "detox", especially outbreaks on scalp.

 

[Star-Anise]

I wanted to create this thread long ago but I did not have the time. I am trying to find out what is going on with the folate blocking that freddd and others have metioned many times.
The questions are:
a)Have you noticed by any means, blockage by folic or folinic acid to your folate synthesis levels OR have you experienced worsening of folate deffeciency symptoms when you consume green vegetables or foods that contain high values of folic acid or maybe foods that are artificially enriched by folic acid like cereals and bread?
b) Have you used folate supplements and if so what ammount of folate keeps you with no insuffeciency symptoms?

1.I need people knowing that they are homozygous or heterozygous on MTFHR to participate on this thread
2. Please keep the discussion relevant to the topic
3.I am just going to do some tags on people that I found out that they have MTHFR mutations from their signatures in order to draw attention.

Hi @zzz0r I will try my best to answer your questions, but like others that have answered before me, I am still very much in the experimentation phase of all of this, so take my answers with a grain of salt, lol
a) I do not eat any greens, or any foods that I would say contain high levels of folic acid. I know that I did feel much, much better when I eliminated all high sulphur foods, which many contain high levels of folic acid as well (i.e greens) when following CBS protocol. I have not introduced any of them again.
b) I do use methylfolate, & only methylfolate. At the beginning, around this time last year before I got my 23andme results back, I did try folinic acid for a bit, & got mixed results. I am taking close to 1.5 mg of methylfolate now, & have been titrating up at the encouragement of @Freddd and others to combat symptoms. I would not say that I'm stable on this dose & I'm still having insufficiency symptoms. Like @ahmo I think I have fallen into that negative symptoms = detox thinking before - because it is everywhere on the net, and proliferated within the natural health community itself, when it seems that it may have just been some combination of methylfolate insufficiency and/or my problems with sulfur detox. My main symptom that I know I need to increase my dose of methylfolate is edema. Interestingly, my insufficiency symptoms have decreased a bit since I have introduced CoQ10. Dunno about the connection. I'm thinking increased heart muscle function = less edema. I know the methylfolate has helped as well, but I couldn't seem to get in front of it. I would increase the methylfolate, edema would decrease, and then return, and I would have to do this seesaw like dance. The CoQ10 has seemed to stabilize it, and help stabilize my blood sugars too (must be related to increases at cellular level with sugar metabolism).
All the best,
S

 

[zzz0r]

I just want to post this link that has a very good comparison and explanation of the different types of methylfolate that is available in the market:

http://www.methyl-life.com/methylfolate-types.html

Also by doing this post I would like to add one more question in my thread to people that are using methylfolate and that they know that it is benefitial for them.
If you have being using mfolate for a long period of time (lets say more than a year) have you noticed that a smaller dosage would be also suffecient?
To put it differently, lets say that someone is using mfolate for a year with a dosage of 4mg daily. Could this person ,after being so much better for a year, to be able to reduce the dosage without presenting any insuffeciency symptoms?
Please share your experience

 

[GenDylan]

Hi zz0r,

I adopted the "blocking" idea from folic acid research dating back to the 60s. I don't know if that is the actual cause. All I can tell you for sure is that inflammation and histamine responses increase tremendously when I eat too much folate containing vegetable matter, folic acid and folinic acid. I don't deprive myself of any vegetables, just eat somewhat fewer servings or smaller servings. Tonight and the pastr few days I have been enjoyiong fresh asparagus. NAC and other glutathione promoting items cause the most severe results with large visible amounts of b12 being flushed out in my urine within hours, with sudden onset of obvious methyltrap (a completely different mechanism than folic acid or folinic acid or veggies) inflammation starting within hours, acne, IBS, angular cheilitis starting in a day or two and allergic responses, asthma, widespread inflammatory pain worsening day by day and within a couple of weeks, MCS is getting started and not responsive to anything except discontinuing NAC/glutathione promoters, folic acid (takes days to have an effect, in theory time for unconverted folic acid to build up to the "blockage" point, the hypothesis of many researchers and clears in about 24 hours allowing more normal effectiveness of Metafolin) and folinic acid (which builds up quicker, blocks in 24 hours and takes a couple of days to clear). The difference between folic and folinic acid could be entirely because of serum clearance half life difference. To break the methyltrap took some sizeable doses of AdoCbl and MeCbl, causing 4 distinct startup responses all over again, the only time besides initial startup for each at both levels (4 in all). It may not be tied to any polymorphisms at all because 50% can convert to a biological maximum of 800-1000mcg daily, 30% less than that but some conversion and 20% no conversion at all. Those probably represent some polymorphisms however, 50% can still have a buildup if they take more than minimum doses. So which 50% is "normal"? It looks like all can be affected on the folic acid. I have no idea what percentage are represented in the folinic acid equivalent groups or veggie folate groups.

You may be asking a question to which you will get answers of all kinds. It may not be a question with a nice neat single answer. I would be inclined to bet on that option as these differences have been known since the 60s, long before the polymorphisms were even discoverable. I would be interested in seeing the results.

freddd, concerning your Folic acid blocks 5mthf theory -- its true if youre wondering,because DHF inhibits MTHFR. folic acid increases DHF ,inhibiting MTHFR which converts natural folates to 5mthf. im not sure if DHF would also block 5mthf supplementation tho.
also, do you know what type of B12 is in meat? personally i want to supplement w/that type because it doesnt lower my cortisol like mb12 supplementation does//and meat b12 has been sufficient for my methylation/histamine methylation so personally i must be able to convert it to mb12 readily.

also, how many hours away from potassium supplementation do you take 5mthf? because they block eachother right? really dont want that.

thanks freddd, hope your doing well.

 

[ahmo]

I have an addition and update to this topic. I had increased my Mfolate levels to 25mg, moving upward when I had deficiency symptoms.The length of time between needing to increased had gone from every day or 2 to about a week.

Then I saw that I was having adrenal symptoms: puffy, sallow face, leaky eyes. I looked up the relation between folate and adrenals, only found that folate is good for adrenals. By this, I assumed too much folate could be over-stimulating my adrenals. I quit my source of folate: zucchini, 1-2 *small* zukes/day.

Unfortunately, I was in the midst of a intensive detox process. As soon as I stopped the vegetable folate (folinic), I was thrown headlong into a raging detox reaction. I suppose this could be linked to *over-methylation*, now that the Mfolate I was taking was no longer blocked by the folinic.

Several times during the weeks that followed, I took no folate at all over 2-3 days, and experienced no deficiency symptoms. I'd obviously stored it. When things slowed down, I resumed Mfolate at 15mg, reduced from the 25mg I'd been at. I no longer eat any green veggies. The good news about the push into detox, is that it probably hastened my *completion* by weeks, at least. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone! Several dramas in the process.

So, CAUTION: If you're going to reduce your veggie intake, don't do it all at once!


Here's an excellent source of nutritional data for many nutrient groups.
Folate: http://foodinfo.us/SourcesUnabridged.aspx?Nutr_No=435

 

[zzz0r]

@ahmo I think you should post that on the other thread. Also have a look at my last reply here regarding methylfolate and adrenals

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/high-dosage-methylfolate-users.29976/page-7

 

[ahmo]

@zzz0r I just happened to come across this thread while preparing another doc, so I posted here. Am yet to get back to the High Methylfolate thread...Am still *mopping up* from my self-induced Na poisoning.