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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I'm sure the Wahls diet helps some people, but it seems to avoid sources of glucose, fermentable carbs and RS — and most dietitians are pretty clueless about the role those play in overall long term gut health, thyroid health and mucus production for immune response. Her diet seems unrelated to this whole discussion about RS-rich diets.

That's a good point - in fact, on her diet (her original one, anyway), you were only allowed starchy vegetables once you'd waded your way through a shedload of others so it's a diet that's very low in starch, potentially, let alone resistant starch.

But you're right, I've gone off topic - sorry! :whistle:
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
That's a good point - in fact, on her diet (her original one, anyway), you were only allowed starchy vegetables once you'd waded your way through a shedload of others so it's a diet that's very low in starch, potentially, let alone resistant starch.

But you're right, I've gone off topic - sorry! :whistle:

No worries! Keep in mind that she is trying to fight MS. MS has a major neurological component and ketogenic (low starch) diets have been shown to be therapeutic for severe neurological conditions. Even Jaminet offers a ketogenic version of the PHD for those with diabetes, major metabolic derangements, or neurological issues. So, ketogenic diets have a niche application and it comes with some drawbacks that are outweighed by the positives for those individuals.

But, I think it's unfortunate when people see those stated benefits and assume that means ketogenic is good for everyone. It's not. Unless you've been diagnosed with a disease that specifically responds to a ketogenic diet (like diabetes or some cancers), the evidence for ketogenic diets are pretty mixed, with a lot of drawbacks.
 

Christopher

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Pennsylvania
No worries! Keep in mind that she is trying to fight MS. MS has a major neurological component and ketogenic (low starch) diets have been shown to be therapeutic for severe neurological conditions. Even Jaminet offers a ketogenic version of the PHD for those with diabetes, major metabolic derangements, or neurological issues. So, ketogenic diets have a niche application and it comes with some drawbacks that are outweighed by the positives for those individuals.

But, I think it's unfortunate when people see those stated benefits and assume that means ketogenic is good for everyone. It's not.

Uh dude most of the people here have neurological issues.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Uh dude most of the people here have neurological issues.

Right. But not all neurological issues are fixed by ketogenic diets — many aren't. Only a few neurological conditions have been shown to respond well to ketogenic diets and there are a long list of drawbacks that come from keto. And most people on keto have pretty terrible guts.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
No worries! Keep in mind that she is trying to fight MS. MS has a major neurological component and ketogenic (low starch) diets have been shown to be therapeutic for severe neurological conditions. Even Jaminet offers a ketogenic version of the PHD for those with diabetes, major metabolic derangements, or neurological issues. So, ketogenic diets have a niche application and it comes with some drawbacks that are outweighed by the positives for those individuals.

But, I think it's unfortunate when people see those stated benefits and assume that means ketogenic is good for everyone. It's not. Unless you've been diagnosed with a disease that specifically responds to a ketogenic diet (like diabetes or some cancers), the evidence for ketogenic diets are pretty mixed, with a lot of drawbacks.

The fact that she's treating MS (neurological, autoimmune) is one of the reasons she's of such interest to people with ME (neurological, and very likely autoimmune). But of course, they're not the same disease and we're at a very early stage in our understanding of what's going to help people with ME in terms of diet. Our disease seems to affect many systems - neurological, endocrine, immune, gut, etc. etc. so it's not clear what our best approach would be, other than to try to shove as much nutrition as possible down our necks - and RS seems to be an interesting part of that, potentially.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
For those who are interested, both Kresser and Jaminet offer ketogenic versions of their diets when it's required. Jaminet has people eat sufficient carbs, for gut health, and achieve ketosis with coconut oils and MCT oils. The only problem is that the added ketones tend to promote yeast and fungal infections. So, there's your Catch-22.

RS, of course, doesn't affect one's ability to stay in ketosis (it essentially has a glycemic index of 0) but those in ketosis seem to get less benefit out of RS for some reason (possibly due to the unfavorable pH in a low carb gut).

I'll also point out that there are a couple of anecdotal reports of people with CFS doing well on the PHD. It probably all comes down to the underlying cause and until that can be determined, all bets are on the table.
 
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Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Just to give you an idea of how complicated this all is. I got terrible neurological issues last year when I went ketogenic. That's how I discovered that I had Candida and found the PHD. Whenever I took MCT oil, my brain fog and short term memory issues became debilitating. Since it turned out that yeast/Candida was my underlying problem, I discovered that it was the ketones that was feeding the yeast and contributing to my brain fog and memory issues. So, for me, adding starches (in conjunction with a bio-film disruptor) solved my neurological issues. A ketogenic diet would have made me worse and worse.

I'm not suggesting that it will be that easy for everyone here. But, that's why we experiment until we find what works for us as individuals.
 

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
Hum can I ask for any update from those that "took the challenge"? My resistant starch trial will be delayed I fear.

I have seen some positive responses in forums, even in one of bodybuilders. These people would try anything - just like me!
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
In terms of the fighting ME/CFS, one of the main hypotheses of Paul Jaminet, the author of the PHD is that "chronic infections, exacerbated by bad diets and malnutrition, are at the root of nearly all health problems." Whether that applies to ME/CFS nobody knows for sure. Anyway in 2010, he wrote an article about ME/CFS that you may find interesting:

Retroviruses and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome >>

Hope that helps provide some clues. Anyone familiar with that hypothesis?
 
Messages
2,565
Location
US
Hum can I ask for any update from those that "took the challenge"? My resistant starch trial will be delayed I fear.

I have seen some positive responses in forums, even in one of bodybuilders. These people would try anything - just like me!

I keep adding onto the end of my blog (that is on PR) and I am going to add more now.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
I've reduced the RS, so I'm kind of delayed also. Chronic constipation was gone for 2 months but is back now :(.

For what it's worth, this happened to me about a week or two ago when I recently upped my RS dosage again. Some people get less constipation, some people get more. Has to do with the balance of flora going one way or the other. It can happen. Cutting back or stopping for a few days can help. Dr. Grace/BG is recommending making sure the zoo cages are full and is favoring "AOR Probiotic 3" and a few other probiotics mentioned here that I'm going to try out. I was doing very well on Prescript Assist awhile ago but haven't taken it much over the past few months since things were going so well.
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
I have the Probiotic 3 but only took it twice I believe. I'm not sure if the RS is playing a part or not in the constipation. I have been eating more bananas than usual in the last few weeks. Gonna try eliminating those for a bit.
 

Gestalt

Senior Member
Messages
251
Location
Canada
Just wanted to add some more info/ideas here for consideration from the Sulfite/sulfate and ammonia questions thread that are being discussed.

Vegas brought up the idea of using Galactooligosaccharides (GOS) instead of RS, and it seems according to some preliminary work it may even be better than RS in terms of it's bifidogenic effect. GOS is what is in breast milk and feeds the bifido in infants. GOS is a lot harder to find but I did find one company selling it: http://www.bimuno.com/

There was an interesting blog post doing some comparitive work on RS vs other pre-biotics here that brought up the GOS vs RS comparison: http://caloriesproper.com/?p=4153

One surprising thing is that maybe Pectin is better than RS-2!?!?

Abstract here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23831725

The full paper can be found here: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=foodscidiss
I didn't read through the whole thing, so I didn't examine their methodology or quantities used, duration,etc. they were trying to study obesity...but the results table appears to be on pg.76. Also they didn't test GOS but Pectin appears to be about 3x better than RS-2 in terms of affecting bifido populations.

Also while not a comparative study this one also touts apple for its bifido effects.
Effect of apple intake on fecal microbiota and metabolites in humans.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20304079

Then there is another possible method of using Cocoa flavanols. There isn't much research on this one but again would be interesting to experiment with. http://caloriesproper.com/?p=1583

I found one company that claims to have a superior supplement that preserves all the flavanols in cocoa that I am interested in trying for its bifidogenic properties. https://www.cocoavia.com/ The parent company Mars Inc sued Life Extension Foundation and Naturex for 9 patents infringements in its cocoa flavnaol production. If people are trying to steal the formula it makes me think there is something to it and I now want to try it.

The research they tout is kinda funny to me in that they are promoting it for it's cardiovascular benefits with no mention of it's supposed bifidogenic properties. Makes me think they don't even know how or why it has those beneficial effects. LOL. If only the company read these forums.

I had some organic cocoa at home but it is "dutch-processed" which apparently destroys 90%+ of the flavanols...too bad.
 
Messages
40
@Gestalt very interesting finds regarding the GOS. We're definitively getting somewhere with all these fermentable fibers.

One of the studies mentioned on the caloriesproper site researched the effects of GOS supplementation (3,5gr/day) with IBS patients: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2008.03911.x/full

Conclusion  The galactooligosaccharide acted as a prebiotic in specifically stimulating gut bifidobacteria in IBS patients and is effective in alleviating symptoms. These findings suggest that the prebiotic has potential as a therapeutic agent in IBS.

Looks good. Normal GOS seems to be produced by bifidobacteria eating lactose. I haven' found a food source that has GOS, other than breast milk supposedly, so supplementation with the Bimuno products might be the way to go.

Another big benefit is that GOS supplementation doesn't seem to produce the side-effects of GI distress and flatulence, which RS has become notorious for (another example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2607002/ ) :

Gastrointestinal symptoms may occur as side-effects of oligosaccharides, but 12g GOS per day or less is usually well tolerated.

I'll be ordering the bimuno, and will start supplementing with this. Looks promising.

I've been trying to find out what type of fiber is in Heather's Tummy Acacai Senegal ( http://www.helpforibs.com/shop/suplmts/acacia.asp ). Mainly because the shipping costs are pretty high too mainland Europe. That product seems especially worthwhile to people who have IBS. Anyone has an idea?

Going off on another tangent, ingesting different types of fiber seems to create a synergistic effect, as Grce/drbg from Animalpharm mentions in the comments on the caloriesproper blog. I'm gonna quote the whole damn thing guys:

Ancestrally I'd conceded that hominids never ate RS alone in single isolation. Fiber occurred in a spectrum -- inulin, oligosaccs, arabinogalactans, xylans, pectins, hemicellulose, cellulose, RS, etc. To me VLC diet + RS alone is kinda un-ancestral, unnatural and sorta freaky. I suspect too that raw potato starch may fail to be carried to the distal colon without bulking agents like other fibers (inulin, hemicellulose, cellulose, etc).

In the rodent studies there is a suggestion that the full suite of fibers provide synergistic and complementary feeding to the microbiota.

RS alone or NSP/FOS/etc alone do not appropriately feed the critters because butyrate production is shown to fail or not be as robust in several studies.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12...

Here RS, FOS, pectin and cellulose exert mixed fermentation effects whether singly fed or in mixed substrates. "The results showed that the mice body-weight gain was the smallest (7.0 ± 2.3 g) when the mixture of RS-FOS-cellulose was ingested, followed by the mixture of RS-cellulose (7.2 ± 3.5 g) and FOS-cellulose (8.3 ± 2.5 g)."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...

This coincides with my experiences with RS. It was not until I started combining RS with psyllium husk that I started to have regular, proper BMs of bristol type 3,4 (though sometimes it's 2). This is promising. I've never had regular BMs since I was 13 and got IBS (I'm 27 now).* It seems that a different method is the solution to GI problems; one that is more methodologically complex but simpler to reconvene with hominid evolution (we never just ate one type of prebiotic fiber). That is, methodologically supplementing different types of fibers, preferably based on valid lab results (which includes both the Metametrix and the BioHealth #401h test to test for pathogens).

@Gestalt and @Ripley (and others of course), since you're unquestionably a lot more knowledgeable (and intelligent) that I am, I'd like to hear your opinions on this!


* I also started supplementing with Prescript-Assist when this started to happen. This is always the trouble with n=1 anecdotes, as there is hardly ever just a single variable being manipulated.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
Vegas brought up the idea of using Galactooligosaccharides (GOS) instead of RS, and it seems according to some preliminary work it may even be better than RS in terms of it's bifidogenic effect. GOS is what is in breast milk and feeds the bifido in infants.

The blog that said that really didn't do its research very well. GOS is not found in breast milk — it's manufactured. Human milk oligosaccharides (HMO) are found in breast milk.

http://advances.nutrition.org/content/3/3/383S.full
Lars Bode and Evelyn Jantscher-Krenn said:
The emerging evidence for the biological effects of HMO on the breast-fed infant created a rationale to add oligosaccharides to infant formula to provide formula-fed infants with the same benefits that breast-fed infants receive with their mother’s milk. The challenge has been to identify ingredients that provide HMO. Some HMO are also found in the milk of other mammals but usually at much lower concentrations. Other HMO are unique to human milk, especially the ones with more complex structures. In other words, HMO were simply not available to be added to infant formula. The search for alternatives led to GOS and Fructooligosaccharides (FOS) (Fig. 6), which are synthesized by bacteria and plants, respectively. It is important to note that Gal and fructose oligomers do not naturally occur in human milk. In fact, the fructose monomer itself is not found in human milk. Despite their structural differences compared to HMO, ingestion of GOS and FOS has been reported to influence the microbiota composition in the infant’s feces and provide other benefits like softer stools.[LINK]

Basically GOS was invented because infant formula led to bad poops until they figured out the babies needed some oligosaccharides.

There was an interesting blog post doing some comparitive work on RS vs other pre-biotics here that brought up the GOS vs RS comparison: http://caloriesproper.com/?p=4153

The caloriesproper article isn't all that well researched (wouldn't be the first time). I believe the writer of that blog is a low carb proponent and he seems to be looking for any evidence he can find that makes RS look less than stellar, which is great for preventing confirmation bias so long as it's accurate. :)
 
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Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
Nothing beats personal experience. It is a matter of trying differents prebiotics. Personally I have tried Inulin and FOS in a Jarrow product and it gave me gas, but my digestive symptoms didn´t improve at all, maybe they worsened if anything. At least it worked ,it fed some microbes, but that didn´t seem to help. Besides, a couple of studies pinpoint that FOS is detrimental for leaky gut.
 

Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
There was an interesting blog post...One surprising thing is that maybe Pectin is better than RS-2!?!?

Abstract here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23831725

I didn't read through the whole thing...Also they didn't test GOS but Pectin appears to be about 3x better than RS-2 in terms of affecting bifido populations.

So, again, that caloriesproper blog tends to just cherry pick whatever it can to promote its low carb narrative and largely ignores the hundreds of studies that show tremendous benefits from RS. The criticism is good, but it needs to be accurate, and the author of that blog seems to just be promoting his low carb narrative more than anything else.

In any case, I want to stress that there are a lot of fermentable fibers that we should be eating. RS is not the only one and Dr. Grace/BG has shown evidence that RS by itself doesn't do as much as RS in conjunction with fermentable fibers does. But, most of the fermentable fibers are pretty easy to obtain from diet alone, as long as you are eating healthy portions of plants. RS is just one that is almost completely absent from the modern diet and that's why we are focussing on it. Why the caloriesproper author would try to diminish a powerful fermentable substrate — unless he was trying to promote his low carb narrative — is beyond me. You need all of the fermentable substrates!

Secondly, the pectin study was done in vitro, in colonic simulators. Not that it isn't useful information, but in vivo would be more useful since the conditions are totally different.

Thirdly, while it's all well and good that pectin might increase bifido populations more than RS (nobody even knows if you even want that much bifido), the problem with dumping RS for pectin is that pectin hasn't been shown to produce much butyrate in vivo.

If you look at this table (and notice the large differences between in vitro and in vivo results):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/star.201000099/full#tbl2


As Tim Steele points out regarding this table:

Tim Steele said:
Tim Steele // DECEMBER 01, 2013 9:25 AM You will see that pectin and gums are fermented almost completely into acetate, where RS is fermented into equal parts acetate, propionate, and butyrate. This is clearly where RS beats Pectin and gum, but I like the thought of including many different fermentable fibers in a good gut diet.

So, it's not to say that we shouldn't eat pectin. We should! But, getting pectin is pretty easy if you eat the right foods. And I think the evidence is overwhelming that RS needs to be part of the fermentation process if you want healthy production of the most beneficial SCFAs, like butyrate.
 
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Ripley

Senior Member
Messages
402
I see he doesn't want you eating white potatoes during the first 30 days of the programme but having got this far on my RS experiment I don't want to stop using potato starch unless there's another viable source that I can obtain here in the UK. I'm hoping the starch is so denatured that there's no potato-ness left in it.

Sorry for not responding to you on this question. You are correct. RS is basically a zero glycemic food. It's really just a prebiotic. And Kresser is a promoter of RS supplementation. So, you should be fine.