adding SAM-e and TMG

[jadeoboe]

Hi All

I am going to try taking SAM-e and TMG to augment the methylation protocol to see what effect it has, I know Freddd has mentioned them before with SAM-e at a dose of 400mg - is this dose fixed or does anyone ever need more than that? I'm not sensitive to supplements and always need massive doses of whatever it is....What dose of TMG do you recommend - Freddd or anyone else??

Many thanks for your help

Jade

 

[Freddd]

Hi All

I am going to try taking SAM-e and TMG to augment the methylation protocol to see what effect it has, I know Freddd has mentioned them before with SAM-e at a dose of 400mg - is this dose fixed or does anyone ever need more than that? I'm not sensitive to supplements and always need massive doses of whatever it is....What dose of TMG do you recommend - Freddd or anyone else??

Many thanks for your help

Jade

Hi Jade,

I suggest starting he SAM-e by itself before food in the morning. Then a few days later adding the TMG. Maybe 500mg is a good trial dose. It is an extract of sugar beets, at least originally..

 

[jadeoboe]

Thanks Freddd - what is your opinion on dose of SAMe, do I stay at 400mg or increase after say 2 or 3 weeks if no effect?

 

[howirecovered]

I started with 200 mg SAMe and added another 200 a month later and another 200 month later. It's one of my favorite supps as it gives me a nice energy boost (and probably mood also). will probably keep going higher slowly. Have posted descriptions and links to all these supps here: http://howirecovered.com/the-supplements/

I take 500 mg of tmg at lunch and breakfast. The effects of TMG faded quickly for me after about a week.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Freddd - what is your opinion on dose of SAMe, do I stay at 400mg or increase after say 2 or 3 weeks if no effect?

Hi Jadeoboe,

There is no fixed answer on SAM-e. I find that it sort of "takes up the slack" depending upon balances of variety of vitamins and nutrients. I've been topped out on responsiveness at 200, 400 and 800 under various conditions. It's one of those I rebalance after each change or even periodically . It's pretty quick. If I stay at a given dose for 3 days and then increase, if I am at "top" more doesn't do anything or I will feel it slightly.

In my experience, if SAM-e is going to make a noticeable difference it will do so the first time at a dose from below. Our nervous system notices changes. If it makes a change on the first day you use it and is needed to run cycle. it changes the balance points of the methionine/Hcy cycle. One only feels it when the equilibrium cycle goes up in a big enough difference fast enough. Otherwise the cycle equilibrium points are changes at a level below perception.

If however, the dose isn't big enough to keep that cycle at the same balance point for 24 hours, the same dose can be felt each day. That's what happens with MeCbl. If the cycle keeps going up and down, then the "up" is felt each time. When one has the system in equilibrium the feeling of increasing energy doesn't keep happening. 400mg of SAM-e is going to keep having the same biochemical effects each day.

Unless that equilibrium point is going up each day one doesn't feel it. That feeling is an illusion, an interpretation. It's like looking at a person on a pogo stick, or on a swing, with a strobe light that always catches them at the peak so they look suspended in mid air. About 40 years ago somebody invented a series of tones that sound like they are either constantly ascending or constantly descending when actually the actual tone at the end when compared to the beginning can be higher, lower or the same no matter what it sounded like was happening.

 

[Freddd]

I started with 200 mg SAMe and added another 200 a month later and another 200 month later. It's one of my favorite supps as it gives me a nice energy boost (and probably mood also). will probably keep going higher slowly. Have posted descriptions and links to all these supps here: http://howirecovered.com/the-supplements/

I take 500 mg of tmg at lunch and breakfast. The effects of TMG faded quickly for me after about a week.

Hi Howirecovered,

The effects of TMG faded quickly for me after about a week

The effects or the sensations of the effects?

The only way I can tell that TMG is doing anything is to stop it for a month and then restart it. MeCbl becomes that after equilibrium is reached as does AdoCbl. Problem is that the anti-inflammatory portion of what AdoCbl does can't be directly felt. When one has no inflammation one can feel it decreasing. Constant sensations, like smells and noises mostly disappear from being noticed.

 

[jadeoboe]

So are you saying Freddd that SAMe and TMG are not long-term solutions? I'm desperate to feel better - I have had moments of clarity and 10% improvement but these have only lasted a day or 2. Taking 6mg Metafolin and MethylMate B12 spray as well as P-5-P but seem to be feeling worse now, sort of run-down and on edge all the time. I was taking Quatrefolic 20mg but was advised to cut back as that was obviously too much...Any ideas on what I can do ? Thank you so much...Jade

 

[Freddd]

So are you saying Freddd that SAMe and TMG are not long-term solutions? I'm desperate to feel better - I have had moments of clarity and 10% improvement but these have only lasted a day or 2. Taking 6mg Metafolin and MethylMate B12 spray as well as P-5-P but seem to be feeling worse now, sort of run-down and on edge all the time. I was taking Quatrefolic 20mg but was advised to cut back as that was obviously too much...Any ideas on what I can do ? Thank you so much...Jade

Hi Jadeoboe,

So are you saying Freddd that SAMe and TMG are not long-term solutions?

No, I'm NOT saying that. I am say that while they will keep on working indefinitely, you won't feel startup from them forever. You might find that The Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl is far superior to a spray,.. You can hold it under the lip for 2 hours and absorb perhaps 1/3 of the b12 in it which makes a HUGE difference. It is also the only 5 star MeCbl that I know of. It is the only one I bet my life on. I wish there were more. You need to get Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex started to get the AdoCbl and also the L-carnitine fumarate to get the mitochondria working and generate energy. After the other half of the equation is in place, then is the time to try SAM-e and later TMG. You don't have the foundation laid yet and you are trying to put on the 2nd floor.

 

[jadeoboe]

Ok Freddd I understand now....I have ordered some l-carnitine fumarate and Dibencoplex. I have tried many different sublinguals including the 5 star ones but only felt something from the nasal spray - I feel like this is really powerful, the day after starting it I experienced greater mental clarity and the world opening up but it didn't last, however I feel it kick in slightly after taking it every morning. You can get B12 nasal sprays on prescription so this must be an effective route of administration?? Please correct me if I'm wrong....

I did take SAM-e and TMG yesterday before I saw your reply, I have taken SAM-e in the past with no problems but last night I couldn't get to sleep for hours so I presume it was from the TMG - I took 2 grams yesterday divided in 2 doses, the 2nd dose was around 5pm so this was obviously too much before bed. Should I lay off the SAMe/TMG until I've been taking the carnitine/adB12 for a while? How much TMG would you recommend? I have read that Dr Yasko doesn't like using much of it for some reason, do you think it's a bad idea to take too much?
Thank you for helping me Freddd, I value your incredible knowledge and expertise

 

[Freddd]

Ok Freddd I understand now....I have ordered some l-carnitine fumarate and Dibencoplex. I have tried many different sublinguals including the 5 star ones but only felt something from the nasal spray - I feel like this is really powerful, the day after starting it I experienced greater mental clarity and the world opening up but it didn't last, however I feel it kick in slightly after taking it every morning. You can get B12 nasal sprays on prescription so this must be an effective route of administration?? Please correct me if I'm wrong....

I did take SAM-e and TMG yesterday before I saw your reply, I have taken SAM-e in the past with no problems but last night I couldn't get to sleep for hours so I presume it was from the TMG - I took 2 grams yesterday divided in 2 doses, the 2nd dose was around 5pm so this was obviously too much before bed. Should I lay off the SAMe/TMG until I've been taking the carnitine/adB12 for a while? How much TMG would you recommend? I have read that Dr Yasko doesn't like using much of it for some reason, do you think it's a bad idea to take too much?
Thank you for helping me Freddd, I value your incredible knowledge and expertise

Hi Jadeoboe,

The TMG can have an effect on the LCF and AdoCbl. You need to know what AdoCbl feels like starting up for a few days, and then start titrating LCF. I started with 128mg and it put me through the ceiling. I find 500mg is fully ample and more doesn't do a thing. TMG can take some of the "wired" feel off the LCF, but first you need to knoe if you have those effects because it can help you knoe about titrating the LCF instead of juming in with a lot to begin with. I also find that TMG tops out for effect for me about 500mg.

I don't know whether much larger amounts would force things that don't happen at lesser amounts. However I find that a good balance is reached when it tops out with "small" amounts, bring it up to normal. Normally each doubling is no more effective than the previous amount when first started. When the next size up has no effect, go back to the previous size. Try again after some months to see if balance has changed. Then after all that, SAM-e can then be used to again, establish a balance and take up a little slack. By then hopefully you are looking for balance, not "main" functions. Good luck.

 

[ahmo]

@Freddd, I'm slowly comprehending your info re "over"/"under" methylation and the B12 relationship. I reread your posted lists over and over, not always understanding the direction to proceed. I increased my Mfolate a week ago from 500 mcg to 750 mcg. After some days I began seeing acne. Yesterday I increased my Dibencozide from 1/3 to 1/2 cap, so from approx 3.3 mg to 5 mg. Overnite the acne has nearly cleared. This is so Interesting! I'd been taking 750mg LCF for a few months, recently dropped to 500mg, which you note here is the top useful dose.

The most succinct version of proceeding on your protocol that I've seen is from the following thread, and I'm pasting in the summary. I've often posted this link for people wanting to understand the protocol. Is there another list that's any better/more recent, or that you favor? Thanks, ahmo

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-hole-insufficiency.22614/page-2#post-345537

Following the newer version of the titration pattern then the steps look like this.

1 - Titrate AdoCbl/MeCbl combo to approximately 100mcg absorbed where healing can “turn on” with 200-800mcg of l-methylfolate. 200mcg will not be enough and will immediately (3 days) give “detox” symptoms composed of low potassium and donut hole folate insufficiency. If startup does not occur by the time one gets to 1000mcg combined absorbed cobalamins, titrate LCF

2- Identify low potassium symptoms and titrate potassium.

3 - Identify donut hole folate insufficiency and titrate with 4x-8x dose size of l-methylfolate several times a day until those symptoms are strongly diminishing.

4 - titrate AdoCbl and MeCbl to perhaps a nominal sublingual dose of 1000mcg each, watching for low potassium, donut hole folate insufficiency and identify any other new symptoms, and what isn’t being taken care of

5 - Finish titrating LCF to 500-1000mg for now, then identify what isn’t healing or not enough. Try SAM-e, TMG, D- ribose, Vit D, Zinc, B-vits and various things as needed to improve performance. It isn’t a try 1 thing and then another. It is add SAM-e and then TMG and various other things. It is usually combinations that yield results. SAM-e need titration over several months. LCF could take six months to titrate up to the 500mg dose and try 1000mg to see if it makes a difference. Don’t rush things. Think things through. Look at the symptoms and effective supplements for them to get ideas. Most people will fall into one of several groups. Almost everybody here has appears to have complicating factors and more severe things going on, with me it is SACD which is basically long term damage from prolonged deficiency. Hormones get all messed up and will often change during these titrations.. There isn’t a system of the body that is immune to damage from these deficiencies. As there are at least 600 reactions affected by the methylation and ATP the variations are huge in number.

6 - Titrate MeCbl separately until it makes no difference.

7 - Adjust potassium and l-methylfolate as needed by response to symptoms

8 - Titrate AdoCbl separately until maximum amount that makes a difference.

9 - Adjust LCF

10 - Adjust various factors.


This description is an approximate description of the process. There is no fixed specific ratio I can even begin to suggest between MeCbl, AdoCbl and l-methylfolate. It is all by titration AND VERY CUSTOM FOR EACH PERSON.

Watch out for unusual things like needing huge amounts of potassium beyond perhaps 3000mg or so. The range of Metafolin is very large and based on what appears to be genetic factors and influence of other folate antagonist medications etc.

 

[Seven7]

@Freddd, After some days I began seeing acne.

Hey how did you resolve the acne just by increasing ab12???? and how much are you taking of all the supplements. Pls help!! I am doing great but I am struggling with very painful cyst acne big red and painful, that I ALWAYS get from b12. I wish I know what it means but is why I always give up the protocol.

 

[ahmo]

Hey how did you resolve the acne just by increasing ab12???? and how much are you taking of all the supplements. Pls help!! I am doing great but I am struggling with very painful cyst acne big red and painful, that I ALWAYS get from b12. I wish I know what it means but is why I always give up the protocol.

Hi Inester7.

Just as I wrote above, for me it was Adding B12 to balance the Mfolate. I'm posting a link to another thread where Freddd lists symptoms, as well as the undermethylation/overmethylation thread listing the many symptoms. It's been very confusing for me, whether because of my brain deficit, or because these lists are so confusing.

Some symptoms occur in both over-and under-methylation lists. Anyway, A couple weeks ago I asked a question about blood blisters. Freddd responded, noting that as an epithelial symptom, it might be Mfolate (first quote below) I've been very reticent about increasing things, as I'm very prone to being pushed into anxiety, irritability. But I did as he suggested, > folate. then the acne became evident, so I added the AdB12, with the good results. I went for increasing the AdB12 instead of MethylB12 by self-testing, asking my body.

Some months ago I'd had big outbreaks on my scalp, twice, once after too much folate, the other w/ too much B12. Like I said, it's very confusing, and you need to be willing to titrate back and forth, just as Freddd keeps saying. I, by the way, am one of those who's now in the 80% healed category since implementing Freddd's Protocol 9 months ago.

And recently I followed his advice to reduce my high dose B vitamins, which has also proven very positive, especially in reducing th excess sulfur, and decreasing my potassium needs. Hope this helps. I have many references I've copied from Freddd's responses, and I still go cross-eyed trying to get it all clear. Best to you, ahmo

...And here's something he's just now posted re Carnitine:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GAPSdiet/conversations/messages/76744?act=reply&messageNum=76744

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/recurrent-blood-blisters.26612/#post-406168

Consider, B12 and or folate are distributed in various layers, as appearing in levels of healing, that has been called an internal "triage" system. You know, deep mucosal is still epithelial tissue, and B12/folate deficiencies are notorious for causing epithelial lesions. Maybe the question is why MMP instead of canker sores.

Or maybe I have to wonder if those might have ever been included amongst my many varieties of miseries. Have you tried increasing Metafolin to see what happens? I have seen some linkage with MeCbl, fuzzy at best. However, folic acid can help reduce it according to various sources. So it could very well be a paradoxical folate insufficiency layer.

But you know, that is a very up against the wall way of approaching the problem. Perhaps more Metafolin, maybe 50% more or 100% to test possibility then titrate down from above, if it works. Looking at it from a game theory point of view, what are the potential gains versus potential risks.

My thoughts for me in this situation would be to try the additional L-methylfolate for a few weeks of an additional 4mg or whatever with maybe one or two more increments if that didn't work just to rule it out. The cost of missing it could be that you never examine that aspect again and so never find it. Eliminate it fairly. I've tried doubling or tripling the dose for a day to see what the effects are. Not much at all unless it affects something.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...and-minus-100-pounds.25788/page-2#post-405187

Typically several of these symptoms will appear suddenly with more appearing and worsening over time if corrections are not made. While these groups of symptoms are called ”detox“ by some alternative practitioners and many people otherwise knowledgeable about vitamins and supplements, depending upon what theories they are operating under, use this term.

Typically they are working on a ”toxin“ theory of CFS/FMS/ME/MCS etc and that these vitamins and supplements mobilize the toxins which then cause all sorts of symptoms in the groups listed. As the ”translations“ are made it is clear that actual ”detox“ if it exists, has nothing to do with these symptoms and they can be dangerous to ignore. If it is ”detox“ in an actual sense, then it is in what is left after these other things are accounted for and/or corrected, perhaps 5-10% of the total initial number. Also, co-morbidities often show up in this way..

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hylation-problems-or-hormone-imbalance.26012/

Too much B1, B2 and/or B3 can increase paradoxical folate deficiency and cause acne.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/page-2

Freddd: My experience prompts me to use a different terminolgy from under and over methylators. These are all genetic tendencies at best. In actual practice I have found that people are very often ”depleted methylators“ or maybe in different terminology ”blocked methylators“ regardless of what their genetic tendencies theoretically are.

Many of these assumptions come from a backround of tests performed on people that are chronically deficient of active folate and active b12s. I had approximately equal numbers of active b12/folate deficiency symptoms from BOTH lists of ”under“ and ”over“ methylators. To this day I can’t tell you what I actually am in that schema as it just doesn’t make sense in terms of what was wrong and what fixed it.

Active b12s with Metafolin, as many active b-complex components as possible, basic cofactors and selected critical cofactors all played their part in fixing my symptoms from BOTH lists allowing my body to be healthy and normalized. Personally I thionk way to much attention is applied to the over/under situation, both of which may be artifacts of inactive pseudo vitamins and how people respond to those.

 

[Freddd]

Hey how did you resolve the acne just by increasing ab12???? and how much are you taking of all the supplements. Pls help!! I am doing great but I am struggling with very painful cyst acne big red and painful, that I ALWAYS get from b12. I wish I know what it means but is why I always give up the protocol.

What kind of b12 are you taking? How much? How much methylfolate. Any other forms of folate? These things appear in my experience with spoiled injectable MeCbl or HyCbl and/or paradoxical folate deficiency (simple methylation block on a given level or folic acid) as well as methyltrap.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Inester7. Just as I wrote above, for me it was Adding B12 to balance the Mfolate. I'm posting a link to another thread where Freddd lists symptoms, as well as the undermethylation/overmethylation thread listing the many symptoms. It's been very confusing for me, whether because of my brain deficit, or because these lists are so confusing. Some symptoms occur in both over-and under-methylation lists. Anyway, A couple weeks ago I asked a question about blood blisters. Freddd responded, noting that as an epithelial symptom, it might be Mfolate (first quote below) I've been very reticent about increasing things, as I'm very prone to being pushed into anxiety, irritability. But I did as he suggested, > folate. then the acne became evident, so I added the AdB12, with the good results. I went for increasing the AdB12 instead of MethylB12 by self-testing, asking my body. Some months ago I'd had big outbreaks on my scalp, twice, once after too much folate, the other w/ too much B12. Like I said, it's very confusing, and you need to be willing to titrate back and forth, just as Freddd keeps saying. I, by the way, am one of those who's now in the 80% healed category since implementing Freddd's Protocol 9 months ago. And recently I followed his advice to reduce my high dose B vitamins, which has also proven very positive, especially in reducing th excess sulfur, and decreasing my potassium needs. Hope this helps. I have many references I've copied from Freddd's responses, and I still go cross-eyed trying to get it all clear. Best to you, ahmo

...And here's something he's just now posted re Carnitine:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GAPSdiet/conversations/messages/76744?act=reply&messageNum=76744

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/recurrent-blood-blisters.26612/#post-406168


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...and-minus-100-pounds.25788/page-2#post-405187


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hylation-problems-or-hormone-imbalance.26012/


http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/page-2

Hi Ahmo,

I think the "overmethylation" and "undermethylation" definitions are all wrong and are not describing what they think they are. I don't use the terms. I only did that with the color highlights to show how contradictory and ridiculous those definitions were.

 

[Seven7]

What kind of b12 are you taking? How much? How much methylfolate. Any other forms of folate? These things appear in my experience with spoiled injectable MeCbl or HyCbl and/or paradoxical folate deficiency (simple methylation block on a given level or folic acid) as well as methyltrap.

I am taking a shot once a week no idea how much of this have: methioine,inositol,choline,b12 cyano,b6.

I just started a few weeks ago and started EVERY 3 days (More often and I get wired)
methyl b12: 0.5mg,
Ab12 5mg,
Folate (L5-methyl..) 800mcg.

I am ready to try every other day. TX for helping me with this, I always get better with methylation but always stop it as the pimples appear (Way to big and painful in skin). If I can resolve this issue I think I can get to 100% (I am about 70% right now, 80% last 2 days).

I just ordered my 23 and ME, hopefully I can get more answers soon.