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Took folate, felt sick, stopped. Then had 5 days of great mental clarity. Then back to normal. Why?

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Excellent info. I have been taking 100mcg of methylfolate for the last few days and can't tell that it's making anything worse. Ive heard that taking B12 first is the best thing to do, so i think I'll just start taking it now. I tried hydroxocobalamin and felt pretty bad, surprisingly. I'll be sure to check out Rich's protocol

Were you taking methylfolate and other methyl donors at the same time as the hydroxocobalamin? If so then it might have been the combination of B12 and methylfolate increasing methylation rather than hydroxocobalamin itself. If you're reacting to the hydroxocobalamin for some other reason then you can just take methylcobalamin instead. The reason Rich recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin is because some people are prone to overmethylation, but methylcobalamin is what's needed for methylation (hydroxocobalamin converts into methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin). Also, which brand of methylcobalamin are you taking? Some brands of methylcobalamin aren't good quality and are much lower potency for some reason. People say that Enzymatic Therapy is one of the best. If you're taking a bad brand it could be you're tolerating it better because it's low potency. Solgar and Bluebonnet are also supposed to be good. I'm not sure if they're quite as good as Enzymatic Therapy, but they make 5 mg tablets (Enzymatic doesn't) so that's an option for people taking higher dosages. I'm not necessarily saying you need higher doses, but if anyone does need higher doses that might be the way to go.
 
Messages
34
Also I realized I tolerate another supplement, betaine hydrochloride. I was taking 600mg a day some time ago because I thought I had a candida problem in my gut, as it makes stomach acid more acidic. I understand this is like TMG. This is strange since I did not tolerate the TMG supplement I took at all (I took 1000mg pills, even the first dose felt bad). How does betaine HCl compare to TMG? Could I use it to the same effect as TMG?
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Also I realized I tolerate another supplement, betaine hydrochloride. I was taking 600mg a day some time ago because I thought I had a candida problem in my gut, as it makes stomach acid more acidic. I understand this is like TMG. This is strange since I did not tolerate the TMG supplement I took at all (I took 1000mg pills, even the first dose felt bad). How does betaine HCl compare to TMG? Could I use it to the same effect as TMG?

People have said that betaine hcl is equivalent to 75% TMG (since betaine also has the hcl). So 1000 mg of betaine hcl would be equivalent to 750 mg TMG. You don't necessarily need TMG to do methylation though. Some people need extra methyl donors and/or need to stimulate the BHMT pathway (which TMG does), methylfolate and B12 (either methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin) are mainly what's needed for methylation. As I said in my previous post, how well you tolerate a certain supplement is going to be based on how much of other methylation supplements you're taking at the same time. Some people might be able to tolerate 2000 mcg methylcobalamin, but as soon as they add some methylfolate they'll run into problems. Or they might be able to tolerate both B12 and folate, but when they add TMG they'll have trouble. But if TMG is taken by itself or with methylcobalamin, but not methylfolate then that person might tolerate it just fine.
 
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34
I actually had a short period of good functioning during the long time I was taking betaine hcl, but it was hard to place it with anything. I know from my genetic Genie report that I have 3 homozygous BHMT mutations, 02 04 and 08. Im wondering, I'm taking small 100mcg doses of methylfolate daily, and 1mg of methylcobalamin every other day. Since im tolerating the folate ok for now, I'm thinking I'll add the betaine hcl in and drop the B12 for now. I started this post about success with folate, so I'd like to see if I can attain what I experienced in those few awesome days. Thanks Lotus, I'll report back here after I give it a good try!
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I actually had a short period of good functioning during the long time I was taking betaine hcl, but it was hard to place it with anything. I know from my genetic Genie report that I have 3 homozygous BHMT mutations, 02 04 and 08. Im wondering, I'm taking small 100mcg doses of methylfolate daily, and 1mg of methylcobalamin every other day. Since im tolerating the folate ok for now, I'm thinking I'll add the betaine hcl in and drop the B12 for now. I started this post about success with folate, so I'd like to see if I can attain what I experienced in those few awesome days. Thanks Lotus, I'll report back here after I give it a good try!

You need the B12 too. You can always lower the B12 if necessary, but it would be good to take at least some.
 

Beyond

Juice Me Up, Scotty!!!
Messages
1,122
Location
Murcia, Spain
Some people can only tolerate low doses (and often don't need much higher doses) while others seem to tolerate (and possibly need) much higher doses.

Based on what I've heard so far, SNPs don't always seem to be an accurate indicator of how a person will respond to methylation. This is unfortunate (if indeed true) since I payed for the test already:(


Would be a blood test of actual methylation status useful in that scenario? I had once tested B12 and folate and they were both very very high. I supplemented with MethylGuard (contains mb12 and mfolate) for two weeks, ten days prior to this test...
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Would be a blood test of actual methylation status useful in that scenario? I had once tested B12 and folate and they were both very very high. I supplemented with MethylGuard (contains mb12 and mfolate) for two weeks, ten days prior to this test...
The serum tests for B12 and folate won't give you an accurate idea of what's going on. Rich said the Methylation Pathways Panel would give you your methylation status. If you do want to get your SNPs tested, 23andMe is only $99 now so it's much cheaper than the Yasko one that Rich mentioned (23andme lowered their prices after Rich posted about the Yasko one). Earlier Rich had said that a urine MMA test would be a more accurate test for B12 (compared to a serum test), but I found a recent quote by him saying that the MMA test isn't always a good marker either:
I just want to note that the methylmalonic acid marker is not always reliable in ME/CFS, because of deficiencies in one or more of the B-complex vitamins that are needed upstream in that pathway. I know this because I have seen results of the methylation pathways panel and urine organic acids results on the same people.

Best regards,

Rich
There's also a B12 binding test (which Rich didn't think was always accurate either). Rich explains the information from the link
http://www.clinicallabtesting.com/s...c8fefaf5ca76b24e85257934003f0299!OpenDocument
Basically, it tells you how much more B12 that the transcobalamin and haptocorrin carrier proteins could carry than they are already carrying. (Note that transcobalamin is the new name for transcobalamin II, and haptocorrin is the new name for transcobalamins I and III.)

In order to interpret this test, one also needs to know what the total blood serum B12 level is, from another measurement. Then, by putting the two together, one can figure out whether there is insufficient B12 in the blood, and if so, whether it is due to a lack of transcobalamin or not.

Having a low number for the unsaturated binding capacity could mean that you have a lot of B12 in your blood, or it could mean that you don't have enough transcobalamin. So I would say that more information is needed to interpret this.

If you suspect that you might have ME/CFS, in my opinion a more helpful test panel would be the methylation pathways panel offered by Health Diagnostics and Research Institute.

Best regards,

Rich
And this is from Rich about the Methylation Pathways Panel test
There are two types of tests that people are getting involving methylation. One is the Yasko panel, available from www.holisticheal.com (or using a 23andme.com panel to get most of the results of the Yasko panel). This is a genetic polymorphism panel, and it tells you what your tendencies are, based on the genes you have inherited.

The other type is the methylation pathways panel that is offered by the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey, or the European Laboratory of Nutrients in the Netherlands. This is a biochemical panel that tells you what is actually going on in the biochemistry of the methylation cycle, the folate metabolism and glutathione (you have to order glutathione separately at the European lab).

They can both be helpful, but I favor use of the biochemical panel, because it gives more direct information about what is going on, and can lead to treatment with the simplified methylation protocol. For those who want to follow the full Yasko treatment program, the Yasko genetics panel is necessary. This program is more complex and also more expensive, but it deals with the issues that show up in the genetics results in more detail. There hasn't been a direct clinical comparison of the outcomes of the two approaches, but both have been found to be helpful.

I will paste the contact info for the Health Diagnostics lab below, as well as an interpretive guide for the methylation pathways panel.

Best regards,

Rich

Methylation Pathways Panel

This panel will indicate whether a person has a partial methylation cycle block and/or glutathione depletion. I recommend that this panel be run before deciding whether to consider treatment for lifting the methylation cycle block. I am not associated with the lab that offers this panel.

The panel requires an order from a physician or a chiropractor. The best way to order the panel is by fax, on a clinician’s letterhead.


Available from:

Health Diagnostics and Research Institute540 Bordentown Avenue, Suite 2300
South Amboy, NJ 08879 USA
Phone: (732) 721-1234
Fax: (732) 525-3288

Email: lab@vitdiag.com

Lab Director: Elizabeth Valentine, M.D.

Dr. Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., is willing to help clinicians with interpretation of the panel by phone, or you can use the interpretive guide below:



March 25, 2012


Interpretation of Results of the Methylation Pathways Panel

by
Richard A. Van Konynenburg, Ph.D.
Independent Researcher
(richvank@aol.com)


Disclaimer: The Methylation Pathways Panel is offered by the European Laboratory of Nutrients in the Netherlands and the Health Diagnostics and Research Institute in New Jersey, USA. I am not affiliated with these laboratories, but have been a user of this panel, and have written these suggestions at the request of Tapan Audhya, Ph.D., Director of Research for the Health Diagnostics lab, for the benefit of physicians who may not be familiar with this panel. My suggestions for the interpretation of results of the panel are based on my study of the biochemistry involved, on my own experience with interpreting panel results as part of the analysis of a fairly large number of cases of myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) over the past four years, and on discussion of some of the issues with Dr. Audhya. I am a researcher, not a licensed physician. Treatment decisions based on the results of applying this panel and its interpretation to individual cases are the responsibility of the treating physician.

Application: In addition to being useful in analyzing cases of ME/CFS, this panel can also be usefully applied to cases of autism and other disorders that involve abnormalities in glutathione, methylation and the folate metabolism.

The panel includes measurement of two forms of glutathione (reduced and oxidized), S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe), S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH), adenosine, and seven folate derivatives.

According to Dr. Audhya (personal communication), the reference ranges shown on the lab reports for each of these metabolites were derived from measurements on at least 120 healthy male and female volunteer medical students from ages 20 to 40, non-smoking, and with no known chronic diseases. The reference ranges extend to plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean of these measurements.

Glutathione (reduced): This is a measurement of the concentration of the
chemically reduced (active) form of glutathione (abbreviated GSH) in the blood
plasma. The reference range is 3.8 to 5.5 micromoles per liter.

Glutathione plays many important roles in the biochemistry of the body, including serving as the basis of the antioxidant enzyme system, participating in the detoxication system, and supporting the cell-mediated immune response, all of which exhibit deficits in CFS. The level of GSH in the plasma is likely to be more reflective of tissue intracellular glutathione status than the more commonly and more easily measured red blood cell or (essentially equivalent) whole blood glutathione level, which is about three orders of magnitude greater, because red blood cells are normally net producers of glutathione. Also, knowledge of the level of the reduced form, as distinguished from total (reduced plus oxidized) glutathione, which is more commonly measured, is more diagnostic of the status of glutathione function.

In order to be able to approximate the in vivo level of reduced glutathione when blood samples must be shipped to a lab, it is necessary to include special enzyme inhibitors in the sample vials, and these are included in the test kit supplied by these two laboratories.

Most people with chronic fatigue syndrome (PWCs), but not all, are found to have values of GSH that are below the reference range*. This means that they are suffering from glutathione depletion. As they undergo treatment to lift the partial methylation cycle block, this value usually rises into the normal range over a period of a few months. I believe that this is very important, because
glutathione normally participates in the intracellular metabolism of vitamin B12, and if it is low, a functional deficiency of vitamin B12 results, and insufficient methylcobalamin is produced to support methionine synthase in the methylation cycle. In my view, this is the mechanism that causes the onset of ME/CFS. This functional deficiency is not detected in a conventional serum B12 test, but will produce elevated methylmalonate in a urine organic acids test. In my opinion, many of the abnormalities and symptoms in ME/CFS can be traced directly to glutathione depletion.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that PWCs who do not have glutathione depletion do have abnormalities in the function of one or more of the enzymes that make use of glutathione, i.e. the glutathione peroxidases and/or glutathione transferases. This may be due to genetic polymorphisms or DNA adducts on the genes that code for these enzymes, or in the case of some of the glutathione peroxidases, to a low selenium status.

Glutathione (oxidized): This is a measurement of the concentration
of the oxidized form of glutathione (abbreviated GSSG) in the blood
plasma. The reference range is 0.16 to 0.50 micromoles per liter.

Normally, oxidized glutathione in the cells is recycled back to reduced glutathione by glutathione reductase, an enzyme that requires vitamin B2 and NADPH. If this reaction is overwhelmed by oxidative stress, the cells export excess GSSG to the plasma. In some (but not all) PWCs, GSSG is elevated above the normal
range, and this represents oxidative stress. It is more common in CFS to see this level in the high-normal range. This value may increase slightly under initial treatment of a partial methylation cycle block.*

Ratio of Glutatione (reduced) to Glutathione (oxidized): This is not shown explicitly on the panel results, but can be calculated from them. It is a measure of the redox potential in the plasma, and reflects the state of the antioxidant system in the cells. The normal mean value is 14. PWCs often have a value slightly more than half this amount, indicating a state of glutathione depletion and oxidative stress. This ratio has been found to increase during treatment of a partial methylation cycle block, but other types of treatment may be necessary to bring it to normal.*

S-adenosymethionine (RBC): This is a measure of the concentration of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) in the red blood cells. The reference range is 221 to 256 micromoles per deciliter.

SAMe is produced in the methylation cycle and is the main supplier of methyl (CH3) groups for a large number of methylation reactions in the body, including the methylation of DNA and the biosynthesis of creatine, carnitine, phosphatidylcholine, coenzyme Q10, melatonin and epinephrine. This measurement is made in the red blood cells because the level there reflects an average over a longer time and is less vulnerable to fluctuations than is the plasma level of SAMe.

Most PWCs have values below the reference range, and treatment raises the value.* A low value for SAMe represents a low methylation capacity, and
in CFS, it usually appears to result from an inhibition or partial block of the enzyme methionine synthase in the methylation cycle. Many of the abnormalities in CFS can be tied to lack of sufficient methylation capacity.

S-adenosylhomocysteine (RBC): This is a measure of the
concentration of S-adenosylhomocysteine (SAH) in the red blood cells. The reference range is 38.0 to 49.0 micromoles per deciliter.

SAH is the product of the many methyltransferase reactions that utilize SAMe as a source of methyl groups. In CFS, its value ranges from below the reference range to above the reference range. Values appear to converge toward the reference range with treatment.

Sum of SAM and SAH: When the sum of SAM and SAH is below about 268
micromoles per deciliter, it appears to suggest the presence of
upregulating polymorphisms in the cystathionine beta synthase (CBS)
enzyme, though this may not be true in every case. For those considering following the Yasko treatment program, this may be useful information.

Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 represents low
methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of
concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining the
methylation capacity, because they affect the rates of the methyltransferase reactions.

Adenosine: This is a measure of the concentration of adenosine in the
blood plasma. The reference range is 16.8 to 21.4 x 10(-8) molar.

Adenosine is a product of the reaction that converts SAH to homocysteine. It is also exported to the plasma when mitochondria develop a low energy charge, so that ATP drops down to ADP, AMP, and eventually, adenosine. Adenosine in the plasma is normally broken down to inosine by the enzyme adenosine deaminase.

In some PWCs adenosine is found to be high, in some it is low, and in some it is in the reference range. I don't yet understand what controls the adenosine level in these patients, and I suspect that there is more than one factor involved. In most PWCs who started with abnormal values, the adenosine level appears to be moving into the reference range with methylation cycle treatment, but more data are needed.

5-CH3-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5L-methyl
tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. The reference range is 8.4 to 72.6 nanomoles per liter.

This form of folate is present in natural foods, and is normally the most abundant form of folate in the blood plasma. It is the form that serves as a reactant for the enzyme methionine synthase, and is thus the important form for the methylation cycle. It is also the only form of folate that normally can enter the brain. Its only known reactions are the methionine synthase reaction and reaction with the oxidant peroxynitrite.

When there is a partial block in methionine synthase, the other forms of folate continue to be converted to 5L-CH3-THF by the so-called “methyl trap” mechanism. Some of the 5L-CH3-THF is broken down by reaction with peroxynitrite, which results from the condition of oxidative stress that is usually concomitant with glutathione depletion.

Many PWCs have a low value of 5L-CH3-THF, consistent with a partial block in the methylation cycle. Most methylation treatment protocols include supplementation with 5L-CH3-THF, which is sold over-the-counter as Metafolin, FolaPro, or MethylMate B (trademarks), as well as the newer Quatrefolic (trademark) and in the prescription “medical foods” supplied by PamLab, including Deplin, CerefolinNAC and Metanx. There are some others on the market that include both racemic forms (5L and 5R) of this folate.

When methylation treatment is used, the level of 5-CH3-THF rises in nearly every PWC. If the concentration of 5-CH3-THF is within the reference range, but either SAM or the ratio of SAM to SAH is below the reference values, it suggests that there is a partial methylation cycle block and that it is caused by inavailability of sufficient bioactive B12, rather than inavailability of sufficient folate. A urine organic acids panel will show elevated methylmalonate if there is a functional deficiency of B12. I have seen this combination frequently, and I think it demonstrates that the functional deficiency of B12 is the immediate root cause of most cases of partial methylation cycle block. Usually glutathione is low in these cases, which is consistent with such a functional deficiency. As the activity of the methylation cycle becomes more normal, the demand for 5-CH3-THF will likely increase, so including it in the treatment protocol, even if not initially low, will likely be beneficial.

10-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 10-formyl
tetrahydrofolate in the blood plasma. The reference range is 1.5 to 8.2 nanomoles per liter.

This form of folate is involved in reactions to form purines, which form part of RNA and DNA as well as ATP. It is usually on the low side in PWCs, likely as a result of the methyl trap mechanism mentioned above. This deficiency is likely the reason for some elevation of mean corpuscular volume (MCV) and mean corpuscular hemoglobin (MCH) often seen in PWCs. This deficit may also impact replacement of cells lining the gut, as well as white blood cells.

Rarely, 10-formyl-THF is found to be much higher than the normal reference range. If this is found, the patient should be examined for cancer, since cancer cells upregulate this form of folate in order to make purines more rapidly to support their rapid cell division.

5-Formyl-THF: This is a measure of the concentration of 5-formyl
tetrahydrofolate (also called folinic acid) in the blood plasma. The reference range is 1.2 to 11.7 nanomoles per liter.

This form is not used directly as a substrate in one-carbon transfer reactions, but it can be converted into other forms of folate, and may serve as a buffer form of folate. Most but not all PWCs have a value on the low side. It is one of the
supplements in some methylation protocols. It can be converted to 5L-CH3-THF in the body by a series of three reactions, one of which requires NADPH, and it may also help to supply other forms of folate to the cells until the methionine synthase reaction comes up to more normal activity.

THF: This is a measure of the concentration of tetrahydrofolate in
the blood plasma. The reference range is 0.6 to 6.8 nanomoles per liter.

This is the fundamental chemically reduced form of folate from which several other reduced folate forms are synthesized, and thus serves as the “hub” of the folate metabolism. THF is also a product of the methionine synthase reaction, and participates in the reaction that converts formiminoglutamate (figlu) into glutamate in the metabolism of histidine. If figlu is found to be elevated in a urine organic acids panel, it usually indicates that THF is low. In PWCs it is lower than the mean normal value of 3.7 nanomoles per liter in most but not all PWCs.

Folic acid: This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in
the blood plasma. The reference range is 8.9 to 24.6 nanomoles per liter.

Folic acid is a synthetic form of folate, not found in nature. It is added to food grains in the U.S. and some other countries in order to lower the incidence of neural tube birth defects, including spina bifida. It is the oxidized form of folate, and therefore has a long shelf life and is the most common commercial folate supplement. It is normally converted into THF by two sequential reactions catalyzed by dihydrofolate reductase (DHFR), using NADPH as the reductant. However, some people are not able to carry out this reaction well for genetic reasons, and PWCs may be depleted in NADPH, so folic acid is not the best supplemental form of folate for these people.

Low values suggest folic acid deficiency in the current diet. High values, especially in the presence of low values for THF, may be associated with inability to convert folic acid into reduced folate readily, such as because of a genetic polymorphism in the DHFR enzyme. They may also be due to high supplementation of folic acid.

Folinic acid (WB): This is a measure of the concentration of folinic acid in the whole blood. The reference range is 9.0 to 35.5 nanomoles per liter.

See comments on 5-formyl-THF above. Whole blood folinic acid usually tracks with the plasma 5-formyl-THF concentration. They are the same substance.

Folic acid (RBC): This is a measure of the concentration of folic acid in the red blood cells. The reference range is 400 to 1500 nanomoles per liter.

The red blood cells import folic acid when they are initially being formed, but during most of their lifetime, they do not normally import, export, or use it. They simply serve as reservoirs for it, giving it up when they are broken down.

Many PWCs have low values of this parameter. This can be caused by a low folic acid status in the diet over the previous few months, since the population of RBCs at any time has ages ranging from zero to about four months. However, in CFS it can also be caused by oxidative damage to the cell membranes, which allows folic acid to leak out of the cells. Dr. Audhya reports that treatment with omega-3 fatty acids has been found to raise this value over time in one cohort.

If anyone finds errors in the above suggestions, I would appreciate being notified at richvank@aol.com.

* Nathan, N., and Van Konynenburg, R.A., Treatment Study of Methylation Cycle Support in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia, poster paper, 9th International IACFS/ME Conference, Reno, Nevada, March 12-15, 2009. (http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf)