Took folate, felt sick, stopped. Then had 5 days of great mental clarity. Then back to normal. Why?

[Tom_Nightingale]

Hi,

So like I said, I took folate (methylfolate to be exact) and felt quite bad. I stopped, then experienced excellent clarity of thought for 5-6 days. The benefits went away and I returned to my normal, struggling self.

I have a decent understanding of methylation, but I have no idea why I respond so poorly to nearly every methylation cycle supplement I have taken save methylcobalamin. This experience with methylfolate has got me excited, but I don't want to suffer through the pains i felt while taking it to have a few days of mental clarity.

Why is this going on? Anyone? I am heterozygous MTHFR a1298c, have one homozygous CBS gene, 2 heterozygous COMT and a (+) MAOA

What's going on in those 5 days?

I'll be watching this thread closely, ask any questions you want and I'll reply promptly.

 

[Valentijn]

I'll be watching this thread closely, ask any questions you want and I'll reply promptly.

What was the dose of the methylfolate, and what does do you take of methylB12?

 

[Wayne]

Hi, So like I said, I took folate (methylfolate to be exact) and felt quite bad. I stopped, then experienced excellent clarity of thought for 5-6 days. The benefits went away and I returned to my normal, struggling self.

Hi Tom, thanks for posting your experiences, which seem to have some similarities to mine. The exact product I used was "Thorne 5-MTHF 5 mg". On the "Supplement Facts" on the back it says, "Folate (as L-5-Methyltetrahydrate); 5 mg; 1,250% DV". It was prescribed to me yesterday by my ND. The following is the brief report I emailed to him this morning:

June 7, 2013

Good Morning Dr. Chris,

I did one capsule of the Thorne 5-MTHF 5 mg yesterday afternoon. I believe the following are attributable to taking this one capsule:

1) My already bad day seemed to get worse in the next few hours.
2) By the time I went to bed, I was better, but I slept a little worse than normal.
3) I had a little worse than normal headache upon awakening (now gone).
4) I got up at about two hours earlier than normal, and couldn’t get back to sleep.
5) After I got up, I actually felt a little more functional than normal.
6) I had my morning routine interrupted, and wasn’t wiped out as a result.
7) I began to think of things to write about (like this update to you).
8) I went for a relatively short (and rare) morning walk.
9) I feel a bit more energy than normal (physical and mental).
10) I had a couple of new (tiny) “rash boil” outbreaks (about pin prick in size).

It looks like this 5-MTHF 5 did help my detoxification, and I’m encouraged by these reactions, but it also feels like it’s put me at about the edge of what my body (and psyche) can tolerate at this time. I’m pretty sure I’m going to do another capsule today, but will likely hold off on doing any of the other things you outlined until I get a little more grounded with this product (I’m guessing another 1-2 days). — I’m looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

 

[Sherlock]

Hi, it sounds like you just need a lower dose.

 

[roxie60]

5 mg of methylfolate - does that sound a bit high to start with???

 

[Wayne]

5 mg of methylfolate - does that sound a bit high to start with???

I'm not sure if you're referring to Tom or me. Tom apparently took methylfolate, but didn't mention how much he took. I took "L-5-Methyltetrahydrate" and took 5 mg. That WAS too much for me. I think I'm going to take about half that the next time I take some, dissolve it in a dropper bottle, and take it throughout the day.

 

[roxie60]

isn't L-5-MTH another name for methyfolate?

 

[determined]

Hi Tom,
Your period of mental clarity reminded me that I experienced something very similar when I was starting up the supplements in my apparently unique way ( http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylation-very-low-very-slow-results.9849/ ).

I cant' remember exactly when the clarity occurred......but it was amazing. It only lasted a day or so, but wow! My dose is VERY different from yours, but it's interesting that we both had this "side effect."

 

[Lotus97]

Some people can only tolerate low doses (and often don't need much higher doses) while others seem to tolerate (and possibly need) much higher doses.

Based on what I've heard so far, SNPs don't always seem to be an accurate indicator of how a person will respond to methylation. This is unfortunate (if indeed true) since I payed for the test already

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

What was the dose of the methylfolate, and what does do you take of methylB12?

I took 400mcg once a day, and quit after 23 days. So quite small amounts over an extended period of time. I tried taking 400mcg once every other day, and I could tell the negative effects were back again already

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

Hi, it sounds like you just need a lower dose.

So I took 400mcg for ~3 weeks, that seems smaller than a lot of people. Could I sell be taking too much, or is there another issue?

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

Some people can only tolerate low doses (and often don't need much higher doses) while others seem to tolerate (and possibly need) much higher doses.

Based on what I've heard so far, SNPs don't always seem to be an accurate indicator of how a person will respond to methylation. This is unfortunate (if indeed true) since I payed for the test already

A quick look online, and I don't even see anyone selling less than 400mcg methylfolate. Makes me wonder if I am extraordinarily sensitive...

 

[Sherlock]

A quick look online, and I don't even see anyone selling less than 400mcg methylfolate. Makes me wonder if I am extraordinarily sensitive...

It sure looks like it, Tom. Just too much of a good thing, but still a good thing for you.

Have you ever tried a methyl donor like TMG (tri methyl glycine) ?

 

[Sherlock]

So I took 400mcg for ~3 weeks, that seems smaller than a lot of people. Could I sell be taking too much, or is there another issue?

Some people get a powerful effect from 2mg melatonin. But 30mg doesn't affect me at all. Someone here was taking 100mg.

So yes, there's a lot of variance in these things.

As an example, I remember a news story from around a half dozen years ago, where a woman was arrested for a drug crime and endangering her baby somehow. It turned out that her genetics made her not break down (in the liver) the opiate that she was taking in a very small dose, so that she ended up with a very large dose in her blood.

Having regular grapefruit does that for a lot of prescription drugs, since it sidetracks the enzyme that is used to break down the drugs.

Other people can be impaired in clearance via the kidney. The manner of clearance varies according ot the drug.

Since your onset of bad effects took 3 weeks, that's a clue that maybe you were accumulating too much. The quick return of bad effects when you re-introduced the drug might mean you still hadn't washed it out of your system yet.

 

[Lotus97]

A quick look online, and I don't even see anyone selling less than 400mcg methylfolate. Makes me wonder if I am extraordinarily sensitive...

I've heard from close to 10 people who weren't able to tolerate 200 mcg of methylfolate. And one the main reasons Rich chose the Neurological Health Formula as the multivitamin for his protocol was because it didn't have methylfolate. Since some people aren't able to tolerate much methylfolate at the beginning of methylation he wanted to make sure people would still have a multi they could take even if they weren't able to take methylfolate at first. That said, most people are able to tolerate at least 200 mcg of methylfolate and some people do need higher doses which is why Rich gives instructions on increasing methylfolate and switching to methylcobalamin (but only if necessary). According to this study which used approximately 250 mcg of methylfolate many people don't need a higher dose: http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf

 

[roxie60]

I'm taking 2-3 mg of Folate (as Metafolin) per day. I just started looking at this Methyfolate a bit more this week. I had focused on my B12 mostly. The muslce tingling and nerve explosions have reduced but I'm noticing more tremors in hands, arms and legs. Not sure if they are related.

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

It sure looks like it, Tom. Just too much of a good thing, but still a good thing for you.

Have you ever tried a methyl donor like TMG (tri methyl glycine) ?

Yes I've tried TMG, could not tolerate it even in small doses

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

I've heard from close to 10 people who weren't able to tolerate 200 mcg of methylfolate. And one the main reasons Rich chose the Neurological Health Formula as the multivitamin for his protocol was because it didn't have methylfolate. Since some people aren't able to tolerate much methylfolate at the beginning of methylation he wanted to make sure people would still have a multi they could take even if they weren't able to take methylfolate at first. That said, most people are able to tolerate at least 200 mcg of methylfolate and some people do need higher doses which is why Rich gives instructions on increasing methylfolate and switching to methylcobalamin (but only if necessary). According to this study which used approximately 250 mcg of methylfolate many people don't need a higher dose: http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf

Could you post some info about Rich? First I'm hearing of him. And what's in the Neuro Health Formula?

I've tried to start methylation but I found I don't tolerate anything except methylcobalamin it seems. Would it help to take methylcobalamin for some time then begin again with methylfolate?

 

[Lotus97]

Could you post some info about Rich? First I'm hearing of him.

Rich (username Richvank) and Freddd both have methylation protocols. That study I posted earlier in this thread was actually done with an older version of Rich's protocol. Rich and Dr. Neil Nathan conducted the study with his CFS/ME patients. Rich tends to be more cautious than Freddd in terms of doses (and number of methyl donors) recommended. Both of their protocols are stickied in the methylation/chelation forums. Freddd's has Active B12 in the title and here's a link to Rich's most recent protocol:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ation-protocol-august-25-2012-revision.19050/
And here's an article by Rich about why methylation is necessary for people with CFS/ME
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...etion-theory-of-mecfs-by-rich-von-konynenburg

And what's in the Neuro Health Formula?

The NHF is basically just a mulitvitamin with a couple additional ingredients. It's not a bad multivitamin, but I just take a b complex and all my other vitamins and minerals separately since it's cheaper that way. Especially if you want to take higher doses. With multivitamins (and just about any supplement that has 2 or more ingredients) you're paying for convenience.

I've tried to start methylation but I found I don't tolerate anything except methylcobalamin it seems. Would it help to take methylcobalamin for some time then begin again with methylfolate?

I'm more sensitive than others so I had to take just B12 for a month or two and then added folinic acid and just took those for another month or two. I recently added a low dose of methylfolate and seem to be doing ok with it so far.

Yes I've tried TMG, could not tolerate it even in small doses

You might be sensitive to methyl donors in general then in which case hydroxocobalamin might be better for you. You might do ok with methylcobalamin as long as you take a low dose. It's worth trying that first since hydroxocobalamin is more expensive than methylcobalamin. You might also be more tolerant of methylation if you take some niacin which slows down methylation by using up SAMe.

 

[Tom_Nightingale]

Excellent info. I have been taking 100mcg of methylfolate for the last few days and can't tell that it's making anything worse. Ive heard that taking B12 first is the best thing to do, so i think I'll just start taking it now. I tried hydroxocobalamin and felt pretty bad, surprisingly. I'll be sure to check out Rich's protocol