Buhner Lyme Protocol

[Lotus97]

Anyone try this? I first heard about Stephen Buhner's Lyme protocol after reading customer reviews on iHerb saying they were taking the herbs for his protocol and were "herxing". So that means it's working, right? Other people have expressed skepticism that Lyme could be treated with herbs when I told them about the protocol. Buhner has a book, Healing Lyme, which I'd recommend. I would also recommend checking out his website even if you've read the book because there is a lot of updated information from him since the book was first published.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/
There's also a summary of his protocol here:
http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/images/stories/PDF/buhner_2005.pdf
There's more information on the protocol here:
http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/scottforsgren/Buhner.htm

I actually did sort of try it a year or two ago. I started at a low dose because I was afraid I was going to herx so by the time I got to the higher doses I ran out of supplements. Since I didn't herx and my Lyme rash hadn't occurred for the second time yet and I had been making a recovery I sort of put the possible Lyme diagnosis aside. Now that my rash has reappeared and I've suffered a significant relapse I'm going to try it again. This time I plan on trying the full dose for a period of time. I do have a question though. If I don't herx, does that mean it's not working? I assumed that it does mean that, but I thought I'd ask just to make sure.

 

[Ema]

Anyone try this? I first heard about Stephen Buhner's Lyme protocol after reading customer reviews on iHerb saying they were taking the herbs for his protocol and were "herxing". So that means it's working, right? Other people have expressed skepticism that Lyme could be treated with herbs when I told them about the protocol. Buhner has a book, Healing Lyme, which I'd recommend. I would also recommend checking out his website even if you've read the book because there is a lot of updated information from him since the book was first published.
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/
There's also a summary of his protocol here:
http://www.betterhealthguy.com/joomla/images/stories/PDF/buhner_2005.pdf
There's more information on the protocol here:
http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/scottforsgren/Buhner.htm

I actually did sort of try it a year or two ago. I started at a low dose because I was afraid I was going to herx so by the time I got to the higher doses I ran out of supplements. Since I didn't herx and my Lyme rash hadn't occurred for the second time yet and I had been making a recovery I sort of put the possible Lyme diagnosis aside. Now that my rash has reappeared and I've suffered a significant relapse I'm going to try it again. This time I plan on trying the full dose for a period of time. I do have a question though. If I don't herx, does that mean it's not working? I assumed that it does mean that, but I thought I'd ask just to make sure.

Herxing means that you've temporarily overwhelmed your body's ability to remove toxins and bacterial detritus. It isn't necessarily a good thing because it puts your body under a great deal of stress.

You don't have to herx in order to kill the infections. In fact, many doctors recommend against herxing too much because it can also be damaging. Most LLMDs recommend going slower or backing down on the dose when the herxing starts and then ramping back up. I think this is probably a wise plan though I must admit to pushing through herxes myself for just wanting to get through it already.

Ema

 

[brenda]

Lotus this site might be of help to you

http://flash.lymenet.org/scripts/ultimatebb.cgi

 

[Lotus97]

Herxing means that you've temporarily overwhelmed your body's ability to remove toxins and bacterial detritus. It isn't necessarily a good thing because it puts your body under a great deal of stress.

You don't have to herx in order to kill the infections. In fact, many doctors recommend against herxing too much because it can also be damaging. Most LLMDs recommend going slower or backing down on the dose when the herxing starts and then ramping back up. I think this is probably a wise plan though I must admit to pushing through herxes myself for just wanting to get through it already.

Ema

I absolutely agree with that, but at the same it is important to know whether the treatment is effective (then you can scale back the dosage if necessary). I just spoke with someone who tested positive for Lyme, but said that Doxy did nothing for them so now they're doubting the test results.

 

[Lotus97]

One thing that might be confusing with Buhner's protocol (for people who haven't read the entire book) is when to use astragalus. Astragalus is recommended for early and post-stage Lyme only. It's contraindicated for late-stage Lyme because it could cause an overactive Th1 immune response in some people. I started a thread about it a few months ago if anyone wants to learn more about this:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...e-lyme-and-buhner-protocol.22068/#post-349535

 

[helios]

Since I would have had Lyme for a dozen years, I knew I was not going to be a quick recoverer, so decided to use both conventional ABx protocol with herbs. I had SB's site and it is great that he provides an alternative. I am not using his protocol exactly as it is outlined, but I am using a couple of his key herbs. Lion's Mane & Japanese Knotweed. I am also taking Sarsparilla (american), but I think I have been sold an inferior version because I don't feel any different when I take it and it does not smell or taste like sars.

I took the LM & JNW for about 10 days before I started ABx. I actually felt a definite improvment in my health during the first 2 weeks. It was great. I dropped back on the herbs as I added each ABx. Now I guess I am about 2 months in and feel fairly ordinary. Some days I feel not too bad, but other days I feel really unmotivated & lethargic. The ABx is taking its toll on my energy. I still take the herbs but at low dose.

I have taken astragalus in the past and I thought it made me worse. Its a highly recommended herb for immunity though. I read your post about it not being ideal for late stage lymies. I wonder if this is why it was not a winner for me. Its been years since I took it so I can exactly describe my symptoms (basically an increase in CFS symptoms).

 

[Lotus97]

helios
Did you say you have taken a good version of Sarsaparilla? If so, how do you find a good brand of Sarsaparilla? Buhner now says that Sarsaparilla is hit and miss as far as whether or not it works for people. You take Lion's mane for neurological effects?

 

[helios]

the JNW & LM, I imported from beneficialbotanicals. The sarsaparilla I bought on ebay from a local supplier. It was supposed to be the American/Jamaican variety. Sarsaparilla is a blood cleanser and was given as a treatment for syphilis (spirochete like lyme) before ABx, so I thought ti would be a worthwhile herb to try. There are a number of varieties of sarsaparilla with various levels of benefit. I thought the Jamaican variety was the really good one. I noticed quite a few online were selling the asian variety. What I got was fairly cheap powder and I'm not that sure if I got good quality stuff.
Yes I take LM for neurological effects. I can't say I feel a noticeable kick from it. With the knotweed I do though. Other herbs like ginseng, brahmi & gingko have been good for me. (they worked better for me when I was younger though)

 

[Lotus97]

the JNW & LM, I imported from beneficialbotanicals. The sarsaparilla I bought on ebay from a local supplier. It was supposed to be the American/Jamaican variety. Sarsaparilla is a blood cleanser and was given as a treatment for syphilis (spirochete like lyme) before ABx, so I thought ti would be a worthwhile herb to try. There are a number of varieties of sarsaparilla with various levels of benefit. I thought the Jamaican variety was the really good one. I noticed quite a few online were selling the asian variety. What I got was fairly cheap powder and I'm not that sure if I got good quality stuff.

1stChineseherbs was selling Chinese sarsaparilla/smilax for pretty cheap so I bought some, but now it looks like maybe I shouldn't have.
http://www.1stchineseherbs.com/lyme_disease.html
If you enter LYME as the promo code you can get 10% off. They're also having a 15% off sale on 1 lb herb powders with 7337 as the code. Andrographis should be bought as a 10% extract, but there's some other stuff including cat's claw and lion's mane.
EDIT: I received my powders from 1stChineseHerbs today. I didn't realize when I ordered, but they're basically just selling Starwest Botanicals' products. So I checked iHerb and Amazon and most of the stuff can be purchased for cheaper from either iHerb or Amazon.

I bought the last two from there, but Swanson sells NOW Foods' andrographis extract at a good price. I also bought some some stinging nettle because Buhner recommends that for inflammation. I'm taking a lot of other stuff for inflammation. Almost all of the herbs in Buhner's core protocol are anti-inflammatory.

Herb Pharm sells the Jamaican sarsaparilla so I guess I'll buy some of that too. Eclectic Institute also sells Jamaican sarsaparilla and I say a 1 lb bag of Jamaican Sarsaparilla from Frontier being sold on Amazon. I wonder if the reason Buhner says sarsaparilla is hit and miss is because some people used the Jamaican others used the Asian. There's a lot of Q&As on his website and that's where he says that he's not as fond of sarsaparilla anymore.

Yes I take LM for neurological effects. I can't say I feel a noticeable kick from it. With the knotweed I do though. Other herbs like ginseng, brahmi & gingko have been good for me. (they worked better for me when I was younger though)

What do you mean by you felt "a noticeable kick" from knotweed? And which brand/type of knotweed do you take? I was thinking of buying a 1 lb bag at 1stchineseherbs, but I decided I'd just take Paradise Herb's capsules because it was more convenient. It says "Resveratrol" in the title, but it's a full spectrum knotweed extract.

 

[Lotus97]

I edited my last post. It turns out there are cheaper sources than 1stchineseherbs for some of this stuff. Also, Frontier sells two different kinds of sarsaparilla. Their Jamaican is twice as expensive.

I'm taking all the herbs in the core protocol. I think I'll add teasel too. Buhner recommends it for joint pain and inflammation, but also for certain types of spirochetes. It works well for people infected in the Wisconsin/Minnesota area, but not good for those on the East coast. For inflammation and joint pain it wouldn't matter where you were infected. I was bitten when I was 16 when I went to summer camp in Wisconsin. I'm glad I don't live there.

 

[Lotus97]

According to Buhner, TOA-free cat's claw extracts are a waste of money and the whole herb works fine. However, this TOA-free cat's claw extract did get pretty good reviews:
http://www.iherb.com/Nutricology-Prima-U-ntilde-a-de-Gato-Liquid-1-fl-oz-30-ml/3447
It even says in the description: "Herxheimer's reaction may occur. Sensitive individuals may need to stay with 1 drop per day for an extended period of time, and increase very gradually." I'm not sure if this is just marketing or if the warning is necessary, but a few people did say it caused a strong reaction. Buhner said TOAs and POAs serve different functions. NOW Foods cat's claw extract is only standardized for TOAs (not POAs which are in the TOA-free and also the whole herb).

 

[helios]

"What do you mean by you felt "a noticeable kick" from knotweed? And which brand/type of knotweed do you take?"
With the Knotweed, I get a noticeable (same day) effect from it. I found it more difficult to fall asleep on it, but at the same time, I did not wake up tired the next day which was great. Many herbs can take a little while to build up an effect in the body or need time for the biological changes to take effect. With knotweed, I felt better on it with in a couple of days.

I found out the sarsparilla I got was from Mexico. I have not noticed anything from it. Buhner's hit and miss comment on sarsparilla could very likely be as you said, because of the different varieties. I'd be interested to see how you go on it. Also with your Jamacian gear, can you let me know if there is a strong taste or odor?

I've had a little break from the ABx (needed to as I felt really rotten), and been doing the Nutramedix herbs (Samento (catsclaw) being one). I started off low and have been only increased dosage a little. Felt worse when I increased but only for a day. I guess I could have ramped up the dosage more, since I wasn't getting much herxing, but after feeling so rotten on the Abx I was enjoying the break.

 

[Lotus97]

With the Knotweed, I get a noticeable (same day) effect from it. I found it more difficult to fall asleep on it, but at the same time, I did not wake up tired the next day which was great. Many herbs can take a little while to build up an effect in the body or need time for the biological changes to take effect. With knotweed, I felt better on it with in a couple of days.

That's interesting, someone else said that resveratrol made it harder for them to sleep. I was also wondering which brand/type of knotweed you bought. Extract or whole herb, liquid, capsules, bulk powder, etc.

I found out the sarsparilla I got was from Mexico. I have not noticed anything from it. Buhner's hit and miss comment on sarsparilla could very likely be as you said, because of the different varieties. I'd be interested to see how you go on it. Also with your Jamacian gear, can you let me know if there is a strong taste or odor?

Is your sarsaparilla from Mexico sold by Starwest Botanicals? I bought that 1 lb bag from 1stchineseherbs and that's what they sent me. On their website it says that it's from Mexico also, but it says this too: (Common Name: Sarsaparilla / Smilax /Chinese Smilax Rhizome) So I'm not sure if that means it's the Asian variety or not.

The Jamaican one I bought is a liquid extract from Herb Pharm. I've taken it a few times, but I can't really comment on it's potency. I've been taking it sublingually and does cause a very strong tingling sensation in my mouth, but that could just be the grain alcohol. I have a bottle of Herb Pharm's eleuthero so I can test whether that has tingling too, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.

 

[Lotus97]

Important Safety Precautions:
In Buhner's book, Healing Lyme, he lists contraindications and drug interactions with some of the herbs he recommends. There are contraindications and/or drug interactions with supplements in general, but I just wanted to point that out to anyone thinking taking herbs is completely harmless.

Buhner also recommends starting with only one herb at a time and at the lowest dose. And only add one thing at a time starting out at the lowest dose with each. The reason why is that some people have very strong reactions to the herbs (most likely due to a herx). One person even had a severe herx with sarsaparilla (which is rare) so you never know.

Assuming that these reactions are from the herx (and not the herb itself), even more caution would be recommended for taking prescription antibiotics since I assume those are usually more powerful.

There was someone who experienced a life-threatening reaction to knotweed. I believe this was due to a herx and wasn't directly caused by the knotweed, but I don't know for sure. The condition continued for several years afterwards.
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2544244

Herxed sooooo hard from Buhner's protocol (Japanese Knotweed) it shut down my gut (esophagus to "other end") and I could not eat for over a year. Couldn't swallow my own spit, got severely dehydrated, almost died.

Got hospitalized & then sent home on TPN (fed through a PICC line/vein in my arm). Took 3 1/2 years to get off the IV food & hydration, and I'm still affected today...still have swallowing problems and gut motility issues.

 

[Sushi]

Lotus97

I had a very bad reaction to Japanese Knotweed too. It wasn't a herx, but a sudden violent reaction. Don't ask me the details cause I've forgotten--I've had so many bad reactions to things that I lose track of the details.

Sushi

 

[Lotus97]

Lotus97

I had a very bad reaction to Japanese Knotweed too. It wasn't a herx, but a sudden violent reaction. Don't ask me the details cause I've forgotten--I've had so many bad reactions to things that I lose track of the details.

Sushi

Yeah, a lot of people here tend to have bad reactions to various supplements or prescription medications. Maybe we're more sensitive because I've read literally thousands of customer reviews over the past few years and only 1-2% of the people seem to have a bad reaction.

 

[Lotus97]

So I think I've been more tired, more brainfogged, and have less of an appetite since starting the protocol a few weeks ago. I hope that means the protocol is working and isn't from something else. I did find something interesting on Buhner's website. It's definitely a different perspective than other people seem to have in regards to treating Lyme:

Dear Stephen,
Do the herbs you recommend kill the cyst form of the lyme spirochete? Just want to say I love your book and so does my doctor. Thank you for writing this wonderful book. You will surely be blessed for doing so. Peace and Blessings, Namaste

Stephen’s response:
Thanks for all your kind comments; I am glad the book is helping. You ask an interesting question, but I approach these things differently. Rather than making it a priority to kill the Lyme spirochetes in any form my approach is as follows:

1. Support collagen structures so that damage to the body systems ceases;
2. Enhance immune function so that the body can deal with the organism itself;
3. Shut down the inflammatory pathways the spirochetes initiate, especially in the CNS;
4. Treat symptoms;
5. And only then, try and kill the spirochete
I find that if the first 4 are dealt with, people feel normal and the spirochetes make little headway in the body, as long as immune health is kept high, so that whether or not someone is infected becomes much less of an issue. I do think that some of the herbs are good for killing them in any form, however the Lyme spirochetes dislike aggressive approaches and have a tendency to adapt, so that is why I tend to leave them alone and to just stop them from having an impact. They are more peaceful that way.

 

[Lotus97]

So I've found out that a small percentage of people can temporarily lose their sense of taste. Buhner said it could be from the andrographis or knotweed. For some reason he seemed to think knotweed was the most likely culprit, but I found a thread where 3 people said that andrographis caused it.
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=1591311

I think it happened to me a few years ago with andrographis. I didn't know it was the andrographis so I think I continued to take it and the loss of taste lasted at least a month. I might have continued to take it even after the sense of taste came back, but I don't remember. I didn't completely lose my sense of taste. It was just sweet, sour, and salty that I couldn't taste. I think it happens differently to different people based on what people in that thread said and also what Buhner said.

It seemed to be happening again yesterday, but last night my taste seemed ok. I'm stopping the andrographis and knotweed for now. Buhner said that Stephania could be substituted for the knotweed. I was planning on taking stephania anyway. I'll probably start taking knotweed again since what happened to last time was most likely from the andrographis. When it happened a few years ago I thought maybe it was from taking too much copper and coincidentally I just started taking copper a week or two ago. Luckily I found the information on Buhner's website and remembered that I was taking andrographis back then. I wasn't taking as part of the Buhner protocol and I wasn't even taking a high dose. Some people who posted in that thread also seemed to be taking a low dose. I also started a new toothpaste that had a weird taste so I thought maybe the toothpaste that caused it. Even though it's most likely the andrographis, I'm still stopping the toothpaste and knotweed for at least a week. I'm not sure why Buhner thinks it could be the knotweed, but maybe he's heard from others who did experience it with only the knotweed.

I hope this doesn't scare anyone from doing the protocol. My guess is that taking prescription antibiotics could cause all sorts of problems so that's not exactly risk-free either.

 

[Lotus97]

I couldn't find anyone saying that knotweed caused a loss of taste. I started taking knotweed based on my own experience with andrographis and also that thread I linked to in my previous post about people experiencing loss of taste from andrographis. I don't know why Buhner thinks that it's more likely than andrographis, but I think maybe I should send him that link to the thread. And I also want to ask him if he's heard from anyone who found that knotweed and not andrographis was the culprit.

I think my sense of taste did eventually return despite me not stopping andrographis, but it took over a month and I don't feel like going through that again. Someone else also said that they continued to take the supplements and their taste eventually returned:

I just talked to someone on the protocol. It happened to her..a month later she is SLOWLY getting better in taste. She wouldnt trade it though for the alleviation of symptoms shes had..

her words - "As for how bad, my symptoms were: severe vertigo, dizziness, motion sickness, feeling of pressure in the ears, brain fog, continuos headache and chestpain plus some muscle/jointpains. All of these are now gone, thx to Buhner." Now..she only had it a year,so..

 

[Lotus97]

There's been some hype about a recent Lyme study using banderol and samento. Buhner had a lukewarm response to it:

One of the difficulties with treating lyme is that everyone is looking for a quick answer to the disease. For most people that is antibiotics. If antibiotics don’t work people must go deeper and try a great many things to get well. And there are a number of good protocols out there, mine among them. However none of the protocols work for everyone. All protocols need to be adjusted for the individuals taking them. By micro adjusting them, most people, nearly all, can be helped. However there is still the desire for a one step cureall and the lyme community gets really excited EVERY time a new thing comes along. And, for some people, the new thing does work. I have answered a query about banderol for a previous questioner, here is that answer (slightly rewritten):

The study [that people are relying on] is ONLY an in vitro study. I discuss the nature of in vitro work on lyme spirochetes in my book; they are virtually useless. Literally thousands of compounds can kill the spirochetes in vitro. The problem is that test tube spirochetes are NOT the same as the ones expressed into the body through a tick bite. There are a number of research papers that go into this in depth. This early misunderstanding is part of what led to the trouble in treating lyme. I do think cat’s claw is highly useful in treating lyme. As to banderol, the extract made from the bark of the otaba tree, there is virtually NOTHING on that plant in the literature. It most likely does have antibacterial action, most South American species of plants do, but there is just too little on it to make any definitive statements about it. As to Richard Horowitz’s protocol: I have spoken with him and looked over his treatment plans and he uses a very wide variety of things to treat lyme, NOT just these two herbs. Banderol probably does have some efficacy in practice but I can’t in any way say that it is a specific for lyme. I am very uncomfortable with the lack of data on the plant, even in ethnobotanical sources.