Can excess of methylation cause drye eyes ?

[daniariete2000]

Good morning ,

I'm on symplified methilation protocol since 5 months and since 3 weeks I started dry eyes syndrome.
Can excess of methilation cause drye eyes ? I just stopped the protocol...
I read this on internet
Any help will be appreceated

Daniele

 

[perchance dreamer]

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have a couple of suggestions for dry eyes.

The best eye drop I've found is Genteal Severe. You can order it from Amazon. Any other brand just feels like water to me.

This is a thick gel and causes the eyes to blur for a few seconds after putting it in, but then is fine. My eye doctor suggested keeping it in the fridge just because the cold drops feel so good.

Something else that helps me is drinking lots of water during the day. I add a little salt to my water, the good stuff such as Celtic or Himalayan. The salt helps me to retain the water long enough for it to truly hydrate me.

I know some people have salt sensitivities, so this wouldn't be good for them. My sodium and potassium levels are always very good on blood tests, so my doctor thinks the salt is fine.

Best of luck!

 

[globalpilot]

I don't know Daniele but I do know vitamin A deficiency can cause dry eyes. Is that a possibility ?

 

[Crux]

Hi Daniele;

I've found that adding potassium and zinc has helped my dry eyes.
Some people are fine with increasing potassium foods, others of us supplement. Either way, it may help to increase potassium amounts between 1000-3000 mgs. daily.

With zinc, beginning with a low dose may be more suitable, 5-10 mgs., for instance.

 

[daniariete2000]

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...hylation-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/

Here is where is writter frequent dry eyes for over methilators.

Can anyone tell me anything about this topic ?

 

[daniariete2000]

Another interesting link

http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01/#.ULHewOQsCQ0

 

[Sasha]

Thanks for starting this thread, Daniele - I've been on a methylation protocol for about a year now and have twice had to up my dose of electrolytes because of muscle cramps (presumably potassium deficiency).

I've had increasingly dry eyes now for a couple of months and hadn't thought about it being related to low potassium. Here's a thing on the Livestrong site about it:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/347415-potassium-deficiency-and-dry-eyes/

I'm going to up my potassium dose again.

 

[dannybex]

Dry eyes and other eye problems may also be related to riboflavin (B2) deficiencies -- which may be happening on the methylation protocol. B2 works with zinc and vitamin a (and other things) to help the eyes, including improving sensitivity to light, and night vision.

 

[Sasha]

Dry eyes and other eye problems may also be related to riboflavin (B2) deficiencies -- which may be happening on the methylation protocol. B2 works with zinc and vitamin a (and other things) to help the eyes, including improving sensitivity to light, and night vision.

Thanks, dannybex - another thing I didn't know! I'm not taking any B2, zinc or Vit A.

Do you have any info on doses?

I've started on 99mg Potassium this evening and will titrate up. I should probably add these other things if that doesn't work.

 

[dannybex]

Sorry Sasha, I don't. I think it will depend on how deficient one is, and possibly other vitamin or mineral excesses or deficiencies. Iron deficiency can also contribute to vision problems, especially night blindness.

Here's a study with iron, vitamin A and B2:

http://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopkin...n_deficient_pregnant_nightblind_Nepali_women_

And one on the interactions between zinc and vitamin A:

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/68/2/435S.full.pdf

Zinc is needed to convert not only beta carotene to vitamin A (retinol), but also to convert retinol to retinal (the type used by the eye)........

 

[Crux]

Hi,
I agree about the possibility of an increased need for B2 with the methylation protocol. I began to have terrific headaches when I took too much B12 and folate. ( I took B2 in years past for migraines-it worked.)

Now, I've reduced B12 and folate, and I'm taking as much as 300-400 mgs. of B2 daily, riboflavin, for now. (The migraine protocol that I followed included 400 mgs. B2 daily. After another month or so, I'll reduce it.)

The B2 has also helped my eyes, they're no longer bloodshot, and irritated.

 

[dbkita]

Hi,
I agree about the possibility of an increased need for B2 with the methylation protocol. I began to have terrific headaches when I took too much B12 and folate. ( I took B2 in years past for migraines-it worked.)

Now, I've reduced B12 and folate, and I'm taking as much as 300-400 mgs. of B2 daily, riboflavin, for now. (The migraine protocol that I followed included 400 mgs. B2 daily. After another month or so, I'll reduce it.)

The B2 has also helped my eyes, they're no longer bloodshot, and irritated.

The active form of B2, r5p is the cofactor for MTHFR to make l-5mthf from the 5,10-methyleneTHF intermediate (the intermediate requires p5p to make).

I am surprised though lol at the 400 mg of B2. That is a lot! Studies show for normal B2 unless you split and space far enough apart, for a single dose of great than 30 mg the absorption curve (normally) is no longer linear and turns sublinear reaching a nearly exponential saturation limit that is marginally dose dependent. In other words, 30 gets you 30, but 50 maybe gets you 35-40, but 100 probably does not do much above 45 or so, if that. R5p sodium is not to my knowledge limited by that absorption constraint. But if you are taking your 400 mg as 4x 100 mg B2 separately then yeah you are getting plenty.

I must say I am in awe though of your intake, regardless of the exact numbers. I am stunned that you sleep well lol. If anything too much B2 makes my eyes and head at least feel drier. Still I have to confess, recently I started splitting my 100 mg b2 up into 2x50 mg doses and there was a definite increase in mental energy, though it seems to shift my circadian rhythm later a bit.

 

[Crux]

dbkita

Hi; Yes, it probably doesn't seem fully logical that 400 mgs. of riboflavin would be absorbed and utilized, but for these past 30-some days, I've been taking as much as that in divided doses. ( usually 100mgs. at a time, sometimes less)
All I can write about it is that it works against my inflammatory headaches. The only side effect I've noticed is a mildly dry mouth. ( not eyes)

I learned of this protocol about 8 yrs. ago, when I was struck down with a daily continuous migraine for 4 mnths. I took alot of things for it including: clonazepam, progesterone, 5htp w/B6, and tyrosine. Then, I found Drs. Mauskop and Fox's book about treating migraines with a triple therapy of : magnesium 400mg., riboflavin 400mg., and feverfew 100mg. (herb) , daily, in divided doses. It worked, in time. At that time, I thought it was the magnesium that was the most effective element for migraine. ( It usually is) But, in recent years, I became physically intolerant of mg. ( tested highest normal in blood serum too.)

The migraines only returned in these last 4mths., after I greatly increased B12 and folate. ( I'm still intolerant of folate supplementation, unfortunately)

From what I've read about B2 therapy, it may take a few months to rectify this migraine situation, so I don't plan on taking such high dosages long term. ( I'm sure it could cause other problems, unknown) But, it has truly helped me out of this self-induced 'overmethylation', possible hypermethylation situation.

Although it hasn't effected my sleep, and has not overstimulated me, I would certainly caution other folks about these potential side-effects.

I would suggest that, if someone is having trouble with a methylation protocol, extra B2 may be helpful, along with reducing the dosages of the other supplements.

 

[pgoody]

If you read into William Walsh's material, increased methylation will deplete histamine levels which I think would result in dry eyes (and possibly a dry mouth). Histamine is broken down by accepting a methyl group. So if you have a naturally high amount of methyl groups you won't have a problem breaking it down, which clearly in the case of your eyes isn't a good side effect.

Low methylation = high histamine, high fluidity. High methylation = low histamine, dry mouth/eyes. Could be a cause.

 

[Victronix]

If you read into William Walsh's material, increased methylation will deplete histamine levels which I think would result in dry eyes (and possibly a dry mouth). Histamine is broken down by accepting a methyl group. So if you have a naturally high amount of methyl groups you won't have a problem breaking it down, which clearly in the case of your eyes isn't a good side effect.

Low methylation = high histamine, high fluidity. High methylation = low histamine, dry mouth/eyes. Could be a cause.

I found the opposite with B-12 -- increased fluids from anyplace in the body making fluids. But I've had on and off dry eyes since starting methylfolate. The potassium symptoms are complex enough that I wouldn't rule that out. Interesting about the B2.

 

[pgoody]

I found the opposite with B-12 -- increased fluids from anyplace in the body making fluids. But I've had on and off dry eyes since starting methylfolate. The potassium symptoms are complex enough that I wouldn't rule that out. Interesting about the B2.

I wonder how much of the whole fluidity thing is really histamine levels. Methyl trapping I think might cause variations in histamine levels as THF isn't reproduced. Check out Dr. Lynch's response (the long one near the top) referring to methyl trapping. He talks about this: http://mthfr.net/forums/topic/methyl-trapping-info-anyone/

But obviously this doesn't clearly explain why someone taking b-12 would experience more fluidity, as it should stop methyl trapping and help increase methylation.

 

[dbkita]

Dry eyes are one of the few things that are unlikely to be due to potassium symptoms. Low potassium while always a concern is over-invoked on these forums. Too many people on here panic when serum potassium drops below 4.5 or so.

Pgoody is right about methylation lowering histamine. Specifically THF which shunts histidine to a form of glutamate and away from histamine. B12 will drive methylation to a point, but there are other factors like the status of the folate cycle, b12 transport, oxidative stress, etc. I certainly have not experienced more fluidity on b12 and I take 5000 mcg per day of the five star active b12s.

 

[Sasha]

I developed dry eyes but not at all a dry mouth. I stopped my methylation protocol and had an immediate improvement though I'm not back to normal two or three weeks later.

I've taken extra potassium but I can't see a clear effect.

I've had trouble with methylation seeming to run away with me before, becoming more and more debilitated and worsening leg pains and muscle soreness - it doesn't seem to matter how many electrolytes I shove down my neck, the only thing that stops it progressing is coming off the protocol and letting things just slowly get back to normal on their own. Very frustrating.

The eye symptoms were becoming too physically distressing to continue - eye drops were completely useless and my eyes were extremely uncomfortable all the time.

 

[Crux]

It's true that potassium doesn't alleviate everything.
Excessive intake of the methylation supplements can cause numerous side effects, certainly.

That said, adding potassium has worked for me, in the case of lowered potassium, prompted by high B12/folate intake.

I first noticed dry eyes when I was stress dosing cortisol. ( wastes potassium)

Of course, tear production is complex, and even the composition of tears is not simple.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1608602

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears

 

[Victronix]

Dry eyes are one of the few things that are unlikely to be due to potassium symptoms. Low potassium while always a concern is over-invoked on these forums. Too many people on here panic when serum potassium drops below 4.5 or so.

Pgoody is right about methylation lowering histamine. Specifically THF which shunts histidine to a form of glutamate and away from histamine. B12 will drive methylation to a point, but there are other factors like the status of the folate cycle, b12 transport, oxidative stress, etc. I certainly have not experienced more fluidity on b12 and I take 5000 mcg per day of the five star active b12s.

Thanks for mentioning that -- the increased fluidity was noticeable whenever I increased dosages, but did not remain permanently.

I got dry eyes the worst when I tried folinic acid. It was awful.