Couple of questions

[Lotus97]

I already asked this in another thread, but since this is the topic of this thread I'll ask it here too. I've just started learning about SNPs and now I'm hearing that either Yasko has revised her views on certain things or people are questioning the validity of some of the theories. If Heartfixer gets his information from Yasko then that would mean some of the stuff on his site might be inaccurate. I'm not sure there are any other resources for SNP information except maybe these forums in which people get their information from Yasko and Heartfixer. Despite a couple things, would people still say that most of the information on Yasko and Heartfixer's site is accurate? I ordered an SNP test on the basis that it would give me a better idea of what supplements to take, but it seems like there's still some unknowns.

 

[dbkita]

So far the errors I an aware of are:

1) glutamine supplements raises serum glutamate

2) baT vdr haplotype is defective / mutant

3) cbs homozygous c699t is 5-10x upregulation

4) akg is made in trans-sulfuration path (it is realky akb)


Does make me wonder what else is of concern.
The cbs misintepretation was realy bad imho.
And yet people are still posting the yasko cbs dogma on these forums as we speak.

 

[Lotus97]

So far the errors I an aware of are:

1) glutamine supplements raises serum glutamate

2) baT vdr haplotype is defective / mutant

3) cbs homozygous c699t is 5-10x upregulation

4) akg is made in trans-sulfuration path (it is realky akb)


Does make me wonder what else is of concern.
The cbs misintepretation was realy bad imho.
And yet people are still posting the yasko cbs dogma on these forums as we speak.

Thank you for sharing this. I hope everyone appreciates an open exchange of ideas.

 

[Symptomatic]

I think the akg -> akb error has been corrected on the latest Yasko diagrams, at least it has been on the one I have. One down, three to go.

 

[fozzaw]

Thiol intolerance and trans-sulfuration issues while related need not be the same thing. Post methionine loading is a real effect and will increase trans-sulfuration flux on its own as will cysteine intake. The idea that intake of thiols is the ONLY source of trans-sulfuration flux is non-sensical. The relationship between cysteine and mercury I will leave to Dr Cutler. Intake of cysteine or as the result of thiols will obviously raise trans-sulfuration activity.

However, many of us on these forums do NOT have mercury issues and yet still show signs of trans-sulfuration problems. So I don't agree that Cutler's theories contradict Yasko claims. They may be two different things. Again Cutler's assertion don't have any relevance for many of us who have no toxic metals but have trans-sulfuration defects nonetheless.

I mispoke in implying that Cutler is saying that those with thiol intolerance have a mercury issue, rather it's just a common symptom in those who are toxic.

Unfortunately, the only definitive method of determining heavy metal toxicity (when it is not already apparent by some other method) is to do multiple rounds of low dose chelation using a frequent dose schedule that corresponds to the chelator half life and thoughtfully considering any side effects. Challenge tests and hair tests are not definitive. By that measure, people on these forums may have toxicities that they are not aware of.

 

[dbkita]

I mispoke in implying that Cutler is saying that those with thiol intolerance have a mercury issue, rather it's just a common symptom in those who are toxic.

Understood.

Unfortunately, the only definitive method of determining heavy metal toxicity (when it is not already apparent by some other method) is to do multiple rounds of low dose chelation using a frequent dose schedule that corresponds to the chelator half life and thoughtfully considering any side effects. Challenge tests and hair tests are not definitive. By that measure, people on these forums may have toxicities that they are not aware of.

The operative word is "may" have toxicities. Many alternative doctors assume if a patient has chronic dysfunction that it must be toxic metals and interpret symptoms and tests accordingly to fit this hypothesis. Mercury is certainly very tricky but even Dr Cutler uses hair analysis looking at indirect measurements suggesting impaired or normal mineral transport to determine likelihood of mercury toxicity. On the other hand his own book on hair analysis and other methods states that many of the other toxic metals can be determined from these labs provided the mercury status is known.

Some like myself have never had a cavity, don't eat fish and have no history of industrial or other mercury exposure. Also as a researcher I can tell you that the assertion that body cannot remove mercury without chelation in some organs ever is highly controversial and by no means a given. That being said it is also well documented that people can have bad reactions to chelation without necessarily having a particular toxicity. Chelation therapy unfortunately is NOT as selective in terms of what is removed as many doctors would have us believe.

For sure there are people who suffer from heavy metal poisoning and especially mercury. I worry when a doctor uses say mercury toxicity to explain 50% of all chronic abnormal conditions. This is no different than LLMDs who do the same with Lyme's disease even when all the Igenix or similar tests are negative. There are many modalities for chronic disease. Trying to explain most of them with a single shot paradigm is a foolish enterprise imo. There are many factors that can contribute.

 

[dbkita]

I think the akg -> akb error has been corrected on the latest Yasko diagrams, at least it has been on the one I have. One down, three to go.

Yep you are right. But think how long that error got pushed and foisted on patients.
It is ironic since AKG btw though a precursor of glutamate is in fact an effective scavenger of ammonia since ammonia + AKG --> glutamate, while glutamate + ammonia --> glutamine. There is encouraging evidence that OKG (ornithine keto-glutarate) raises plasma glutamine levels very effectively while also lowering ammonia.

In another bit of irony, while ingested glutamine does NOT raise glutamate in the periphery, nor does orally ingested glutamine raise plasma levels of glutamine (IV does of course). 95% of all the glutamine you consume orally as supplement pills or powders goes to feeding the enterocytes in your GI tract. This only begins to deviate if you ingest very LARGE amounts of glutamine for which the benefits are debatable unless you have severe trauma or burns in which case doctors would feed you glutamine by IVs anyways thereby bypassing the enterocytes in your gut. However, don't knock the ability of glutamine to provide fuel for the enterocytes in your GI tract. Most of your immune system lies there and gut integrity especially at the tight junctions is very important to many of us probably.

 

[adreno]

There is encouraging evidence that OKG (ornithine keto-glutarate) raises plasma glutamine levels very effectively while also lowering ammonia.

Would you recommend OKG over regular AKG? It's more than double the price. There is also AAKG (arginine AKG) to make things more confusing. Actually, OKG should probably be named OAKG.

 

[xjhuez]

Would you recommend OKG over regular AKG? It's more than double the price. There is also AAKG (arginine AKG) to make things more confusing. Actually, OKG should probably be named OAKG.

I've also seen Creatine-Alpha Ketoglutarate.

You weren't kidding about it being expensive - Source Naturals OKG is $28 for 4oz.. basically $1 per teaspoon

 

[adreno]

You weren't kidding about it being expensive - Source Naturals OKG is $28 for 4oz.. basically $1 per teaspoon

Right, they have a K-Mg AKG that is 11.48 for a month's use:
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-K-Mag-KG-1185-mg-60-Tablets/1313

 

[adreno]

However, don't knock the ability of glutamine to provide fuel for the enterocytes in your GI tract. Most of your immune system lies there and gut integrity especially at the tight junctions is very important to many of us probably.

I would like to take it. But the last few times I've tried, it gave me a thunderous headache. Any hints why this could be?

 

[Lotus97]

You can get creatine AKG, OKG, AAKG, and glutamine AKG from NutriBio. I can't really vouch for their quality though, but their prices are cheap. I'm taking the creatine AKG and it doesn't dissolve completely in water. I'm not too happy about that since I'm not sure I want something solid that's also acidic (it's quite sour) passing through my digestive tract. Their OKG does dissolve in water though and it's cheaper than Source Naturals', but still kind of expensive. Also, their alpha lipoic acid which is supposed to be very acidic doesn't dissolve at all in water which also concerns me a lot. Maybe my body can break it down fine. I don't know much about anatomy though so I'm extra cautious. They also sell something called Extreme Nitric Stack which has a lot of aminos including AAKG, OKG, creatine, citrulline malate, and some other stuff. Again, I can't vouch for Nutrabio's quality. But they do have good prices.

 

[Lotus97]

There is something that concerns me. I don't understand SNPs very well so perhaps there's some nuance that I'm missing. I've been trying to find out which SNPs have a problem with folic acid and/or folinic acid. I found some of Rich's older posts saying that MTHFR or specifically MTHFR C677T has trouble processing folinic acid. I asked dbkita about it and he said that's not true. Now I'm not necessarily going to instantly believe dbkita over Rich (as I trust both of their opinions), but I looked more carefully and all of Rich's posts in the past 2 years so it's MTHFS (and more recently MTHFS and SHMT) that have the issue with folinic acid. Rich even says in a lot of his posts MTHFS (different than MTHFR) to avoid any confusion. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because I found this on Yasko's site which possibly is where Rich got the information:
(again, there might be some nuance that I don't understand. Also, I'm not referring to the first paragraph where she says that they compete which might be true. I've bolded the section I'm referring)
http://www.dramyyasko.com/resources/autism-pathways-to-recovery/chapter-6/
Addressing MTHFR C677T
Appropriate supplementation should help to alleviate these undesirable effects. The C677T mutation serves the forward reaction of the MTHFR enzyme, reducing the ability of the body to make a specific kind of folate called 5 methyl folate. That’s why it’s important to supplement with this specific form of folate and to limit to very low doses any other forms of plain folate or folinic, which compete with 5 methyl folate for transport into the body.
The medical literature is not clear and unified in its understanding of 5 methyl folate, but from my experience one thing is clear: Only 5 methyl folate will bypass the MTHFR mutation. The 5 formyl folate has other advantages, but it will not bypass the mutation. Going from 5 formyl THF to 5 methyl THF requires MTHFR. The product called Folapro is clearly 5 methyl THF. There are products on the market labeled as folinic acid that are 5 formyl THF and others labeled folinic that are 5 methyl THF. Given the confusion, it is safer to use a product based on the chemical formula, rather than to use one based on the name on the label.

 

[Lotus97]

I mispoke in implying that Cutler is saying that those with thiol intolerance have a mercury issue, rather it's just a common symptom in those who are toxic.

Unfortunately, the only definitive method of determining heavy metal toxicity (when it is not already apparent by some other method) is to do multiple rounds of low dose chelation using a frequent dose schedule that corresponds to the chelator half life and thoughtfully considering any side effects. Challenge tests and hair tests are not definitive. By that measure, people on these forums may have toxicities that they are not aware of.

If I was able to take 2 x 300 mg alpha lipoic acid and 2 x 300 mg NAC without any major symptoms does that mean I don't have any mercury issues? Or do I also need to take something like DMSA to know for sure?

 

[Sushi]

If I was able to take 2 x 300 mg alpha lipoic acid and 2 x 300 mg NAC without any major symptoms does that mean I don't have any mercury issues? Or do I also need to take something like DMSA to know for sure?

I could also take ALA and NAC without symptoms, but did have mercury issues, so I don't think this is a litmus paper indication.

Sushi

 

[Lotus97]

I could also take ALA and NAC without symptoms, but did have mercury issues, so I don't think this is a litmus paper indication.

Sushi

So did you get tested? And which test did you use?

 

[dbkita]

Nutrabio powders for creatine pyruvate and d-ribose are the best I have personally tried.

 

[PDXhausted]

Just came across this article that has a nice review of some of the literature on CBS:
http://web.mit.edu/london/www/cbs.html

I found it interesting that Down's Syndrome children saw a more significant CBS upregulation, while Down's Syndrome adults didn't.

I also found it interesting that researchers of that DS study speculated that reduced glutathione seen in DS kids was a result of oxidative stress due to an overexpression of SOD. What would be the mechanism of that speculation? I don't have DS, but I'm curious as to how an overexpression of SOD would lead to oxidative stress.

 

[Lotus97]

Has anyone seen a source other than Dr Yasko or Heartfixer that confirms that sulfates increase the fight or flight response? And if so, what is the explanation given?

So you have haven't noticed that symptom when your sulfates are elevated?

 

[Freddd]

Hi all,

A couple of questions that have been bugging me for a long time:

1) Does anyone have any research articles that back up the claim by Dr Yasko and others that a homozygous CBS C699T mutation up regulates enzyme activity by 10x or anything close to that.

Stuff I have seen so far which looked at homocystiene levels of people with and without the mutation showed fairly nominal variations (i.e. like 10-15% or so reductions in those with the mutation). Nothing close to the heavy up-regulations claimed by Dr Yasko et al.

2) Has anyone seen a source other than Dr Yasko or Heartfixer that confirms that sulfates increase the fight or flight response? And if so, what is the explanation given?

Thanks ahead of time.

Hi Dbkita,

I have no idea about sulfates. I do know that the "fight or flight" response is controlled in the limbic system and is triggered by the hypersensitive response to l-carnitine, AdoCbl or occasionally MeCbl as I have been describing. This occurs in those with the CFS/FMS/ME symptoms with anxiety. She how would ATP startup in limbic neurons relate to sulfates or is she somehow talking about a completely different cause? This is a group that appears to have chronic CNS AdoCbl and/or LCF deficiencies causing damage over the long term that makes these neurons very irritable on ATP and or methylation startup.

I would be very interested in hearing such an explanation.